The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by somethin'else » Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:29 pm

Having a major case of Pageyholism, you cannot deny the 1624T as a contender.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1qN4GixSxg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I had one made by these fellers (not soliciting, and no affiliation otherwise)

http://turretboards.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See Amps/Amp Kits for their Model 24.... love it.

IT's THE 6973 TUBES MAN... and a Tonebender. Not a 6L6 or 6v6, IMHO.
6973 = Weird Old radio tubes that don't break until you're around 8-10, and a beautiful break up they have.

Really.
:D

(+1 the KGB research idea sounds like more fun though!)
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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by leadguy » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:06 am

Always remember that when referencing a recording, the sound of the recording chain has to be taken into account.

And so, when referencing "Stairway", the microphone, the placement of that mic, the mic pre, the console, the mastering, and more have sculpted what we hear.

As an example...if we were sitting in the front row, right in front of D. Allman's amp the nites that the "live At The Fillmore" record was recorded....his guitar would have sounded NOTABLY DIFFERENT than what we have gotten used to hearing via the record.

Very few folks talk about that. Why not?
I talk about it in the EVH forum sometimes.

I think it's because some people with little or no recording experience think it's just the amp and guitar and effects similar to what they would use in their homes and things like mic placement and EQing and reverb (rooms and plate) and compression and the recording room acoustics and mastering etc etc get ignored.

Andy Johns has given interviews about the recording from what I remember and Page had mics in weird places far away from the amp that he used to use and not just for drums, but also other things as well.

Stairway has direct Rickenbackers on it.

"But I mean, even on 'Stairway', if you listen to that, it's fairly simple. We cut the track with drums, John Paul played a Hofner electric piano, looked like a little upright. And I tried to get as much bottom end out of the left hand as I could so we have something on the bottom end when they were tracking and Jimmy Page played the acoustic and then John put bass on it and then Pagey, we put the two 12-stings, Rickeys which I did direct, that's why they're so twinkley…, that stuff. And then there's a main sort of electric rhythm when it kicks in and a solo. And the recorders on bookends type of thing. And that's it. It really isn't that much."

Black Dog is direct with some tricks.

http://www.uaudio.com/webzine/2003/april/index8.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Would you like the “Black Dog” guitar tone story?

UA: Absolutely—which Led Zeppelin album was that?

Andy: That is the fourth one, the really, really big one. “Stairway To Heaven,” “Levee Breaks,” and “Black Dog.” It sold about eighteen million-- something bloody ridiculous. Who would have known, you know? I had been trying to get this sound from Buffalo Springfield for a long time and I met Bill House. He said, “just put two 1176s in series.” He didn’t really want to let me know what “they” were. It was a direct sound and I thought that I knew what to do. There were three guitars on “Black Dog” so I triple tracked it. When I mixed it, these three guitars were down here and the rest of the tracks were up here. Since the sound was so loud, it gave me much more room for the other stuff. Anyways, he meant two 1176s in series, one of which has the compression buttons punched out, so it is like an amp. You hit the front of the next compressor really hard and make the mic amp distort a bit with the EQ-- a bit of bottom to make it sing. So “Black Dog” has a direct Gibson Les Paul Sunburst 52 or something, going right into the mic amps on the mixer, which is going through two 1176s, and it sounds like some guy in the Albert Hall with a bunch of marshals. I couldn’t have done it without the 1176s. There is not another compressor that will do that, because you can take out the compression stuff."

"GW: One music-oriented question before we move on to "Houses of the Holy": Tell me how you got that sound on Black Dog.

Page: We put my Les Paul through a direct box, and from there into a mic channel. We used the mic amp of the mixing board to get distortion. Then we ran it through two Urie 1176 Universal compressors in series. Then each line was triple-tracked. Curiously, I was listening to that track when we were reviewing the tapes and the guitars almost sound like an analog synthesizer."

http://www.iem.ac.ru/zeppelin/docs/inte ... page_93.gw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A lot of Page tones are how he sets up the micing in the recording room etc.

When Alex Van Halen worked with Andy Johns, he asked Andy Johns to show him how he got the John Bonham drum sound on Stairway, meaning that the John Bonham drum sound on Stairway was a studio sound and not necessarily John Bonham's drum sound away from the studio.

" I think Alex mainly…Alex really wanted…He always wanted to sound like Bonzo. And I remember the first time he plays me this one fill of 'Stairway to Heaven', he goes, “Make my snare sound like that.” I said well, you know, yeah right! Sure, no problem. So we went from there and it took a very long time."

http://www.melodicrock.com/interviews/andyjohns.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Glyn Johns, who is Andy Johns brother who worked with Led Zep and VH, anyway, Glyn Johns used to use a small attic in the recording studio and play the snare drum through a speaker in the attic with a mic in the attic picking up the result for snare reverb. This reverb re-amping, is a well known way to get great natural sounding reverb and is on so many great recordings.

Tricks of the Trade.
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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by EyeOfZorro » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:12 pm

What is with Andy John's recollection of the electric 12 strings being Rickies?
Isn't it a known fact it was a 1965 Fender Electric XII?

I personally own a Supro "Super" 1606 with an oval 6x9 speaker, a 6973 based Supro with a 12" and a 1690 based circuit amp.

The Supro super is what I think he used and the best amp I've ever played.

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by ampSnob » Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:01 am

I have a Supro 'Super' as well. I think it's the one for Stairway. 1 Small speaker, 1 6v6, 1 12AX7, 1 5Y3 (IIRC), 1 knob. Fantastic little amp. You can still get these relatively cheap. I wasn't sure why they were called 'Super' until I saw one ebay that still had the plate intact (mine is gone) and it does in fact say Super on there, but I think some might not have had that. The old Dragon Tele from the first couple albums was dusted off for Stairway was it not? I had read it was a Fender XII for the 12 string parts as well.

Let me know if you want pictures of my Super or anything

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by demonufo » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:19 pm

EyeOfZorro wrote:What is with Andy John's recollection of the electric 12 strings being Rickies?
Isn't it a known fact it was a 1965 Fender Electric XII?
Yes, curious that, given that the Rickenbackers have a very different sound to all the other 12 strings out there... :what:
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by jz » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:32 pm

I think a good part of the sound is the fact that Jimmy Page is playing it. How much of a players sound is their touch? I would bet you could give Jimmy Page a Squire Tele and a Peavey amp and it would still sound like Jimmy Page.

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by garbeaj » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:51 pm

In 30 plus years of trying many, MANY vintage Supro amps, including several of the two models that everyone claims are "the" amp, I've never heard anything that is anywhere close to the sound of the first album. This hasn't ever been solved and I don't think it ever will be solved.

What is really ridiculous is the fact that the retards who make clips almost to a man insist on making clips with Les Pauls and playing riffs from Led Zeppelin II (more often than not, "Heartbreaker") which is insane because he never used the fucking Supro on the second album. The tone that everyone wants is the straight amp tone that you hear most clearly on "Communication Breakdown", "Good Times Bad Times" and "I Can't Quit You Baby" which are the only tracks that were recorded with the fewest overdubs and almost entirely without effects (well except for the wah-wah on the solo of "Communication Breakdown" and the Leslie on the leads of "Good Times Bad Times"). Of course the "Stairway..." solo is the only other occurrence of using the Supro outside of the first album. The rhythm tracks for most of the electric guitar tracks on the first album feature this tone as well, but it is a little hard to distinguish these rhythm tracks on songs like "Dazed and Confused", "How Many More Times" and the electric parts of "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" because there are so many other guitars overdubbed, especially the overdubs which include an octave mulitplier ("You Shook Me", "Dazed and Confused") and the Solasound Tonebender MKII fuzz ("How Many More Times", "Dazed and Confused").

Frankly, none of the Supros that I have played or heard in internet clips sound any different from my Sears Silvertone 1482 amp. Great sounding amp, but none of the thick midrange and treble that is the dominant characteristic of the straight guitar-to-amp tones from the first Led Zeppelin album. And before anyone asks, I am talking only about the Telecaster sounds. There is no evidence that Page ever used the Supro for any other tracks that featured another guitar. The entire first album and the "Stairway..." solo were recorded using the psychedelic Tele that Jimmy got from Jeff Beck as Jimmy began playing with The Yardbirds on guitar. This guitar:
Image
Image
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Last edited by garbeaj on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by LeonC » Sun Nov 03, 2013 4:53 pm

I won't pretend to have any real answers to the mystery and really...I don't care which amp it was. I loved Zep but I'm not on a mission.

That being said, in recent years, I've developed a lot of love for Valco-made amps, including Supros, Nationals, some Gretsch, Airline and Vega models, etc. I have quite a few at this point, including an original version 1624T--which featured 6V6s and an octal tube (6SQ7) for the tremolo oscillator function. It has notably more gain than the later model 24 (S6424 schematic) that featured separate tone knobs on each channel. Way more--this is due to the its tone stack, phase-inverter and grid-leak bias on the front-end. It should be noted that the 1690T (Coronado) and its "brethren", the 1695T and Vega V70 all had a very similar front end, tone stack and phase-inverter; they are like the 6L6 versions of the original 1624T. The differences between these larger 6L6-based models were largely in the speaker configuration. So all the amps made with this type of pre-amp get the gain levels you can year on the early Zepp recordings. And through the right speakers and smallish cabs, produce that same "boxy" voicing that you can hear on Communication Breakdown, Good Times/Bad Times and so on.

It's also worth noting that Valco made numerous variations of amps during the mid-late 50s/early 60s period (and just about every other period, from what I've learned, LOL) so there is no definitive "model 1624T" or "1690T", etc. If you talk to any techs who have had a lot of experience with these Valco-made amps, they'll tell you the same thing: it seems like every other amp was "a transitional version" :?

I have a Vega V70 (youtube vid below)--essentially the same as a Supro 1695T; came with a C15P, like the 1695T, but I've got a C15N in it now, which I think sounds better. I gotta say, when played through two 10s (more on this in a minute) it is essentially a Coronado (1690T) and gets awfully close--to my ears--to the sound on the early Zepp recordings.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9q8q11ZtSDM[/youtube]

Furthermore, in the last year and a half, I've gotten involved in repairing, modding and building some Supro type amps. A friend (from the Magnatone-Valco discussion group) and I have been building amps that are essentially clones of the original Supro 1624T, like mine. Here's a video comparing our ValClone to the original. And if you check out my youtube channel, you'll see I have a number of other vids of the original 1624T and our clone.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkGUx9brbMY[/youtube]

I've also built an amp based on my favorite Supro, the 1688TN. (It is NOT for sale :)); the amp was originally a 2x12 but I found the stock amp to be a bit too bright and too loud. In my clone, I opted for 10" green backs which are quite inefficient and notably darker than the Jensen C12Ps. I recently tried playing my Vega through this cab and boy...it rocked!! :hairband: Anyway, I've tweaked the circuit on the 1688 in a number of places to get the trem channel a little less bright and a bit more overdriven and I've added a bright switch to the normal (bass) channel.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEhWqvyaiuE[/youtube]

So now, I'm in the middle of a project building an amp that is essentially a mid-50s Coronado 1690T. I'm using the two 10" Greenbacks again because they sound fantastic with this circuit. On this one, I've opted to go with the split chassis design like the originals. Why? Because I've never done it before, it gives me the option of trying different upper chassis circuits (modularity) and makes for a quiet-running amp (I've kept all the AC on the lower chassis, unlike the originals which run 110V up the umbilical to the switch and fuse on the upper chassis). So it'll be a mild inconvenience but I think it'll sound better with the whole power section below. I also added an AC-based neon pilot on the lower chassis (and I'm running the more common 6.3V above) so when working on the lower chassis you can see when the power is on.

I'm using the same type of parts to the extent that I can (NOS allen bradley carbon comps, post, 20% ceramic disc caps up front, etc.) though I opted to use more easily replaced individual filter caps rather than a big old can. One of the great things about building this amp is that the company that originally made the transformers--Magnetic Components--still exists and still makes the same PT. The OT is that of the Thunderbolt (which, FWIW, I'm convinced is NOT what Page used...not very good sounding guitar amps IMO) but it works well in this application (that's what I'm using in my 1688TN clone).

Here's the 1690T clone, coming together.
http://www.chalnick.org/LeonsGear/Supro ... g_1872.jpg
http://www.chalnick.org/LeonsGear/Supro ... g_1876.jpg
http://www.chalnick.org/LeonsGear/Supro ... g_1878.jpg
http://www.chalnick.org/LeonsGear/Supro ... g_1877.jpg

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by mightymike » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:27 pm

I loved the tone with that 1688TN.. :drool:
That sweet feedback :drool: :drool:
Beautiful Clean to Breakup ...What not to like.
Nice playing too Leon. :clap: :toast:

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by garbeaj » Thu Nov 07, 2013 4:27 pm

Leon...excellent clips! Very well recorded and well played. Incredible joinery on that cabinet...very nice work.

I hate to sound like a jerk here, but I would like to request/suggest that if you are interested in demoing a Supro amp or your own build by playing a Page number you might consider narrowing your focus as far as the material you choose and the guitar that you use.

I humbly suggest that you use a Telecaster (if you can get your hands on one) and I also would try to stick with playing songs that are more or less known as songs that Page recorded using the Supro. The reason the Supros are so sought after is Page's association with them and he has mentioned in interviews several times when he used the Supro. Like many rock stars, Page could be guilty of deliberate mis-information, but generally speaking it is accepted that Page used the Supro only in combination with the Telecaster. At least the tones that just about everyone is searching for as far as Page is concerned are the result of the Telecaster/Supro combination.

For what it's worth, in my opinion,the following recordings are likely examples of Page's straight Telecaster guitar-to- Supro tones that would best demonstrate any Page oriented Telecaster to Supro or Supro style amp tones:

Led Zeppelin I:
"Communication Breakdown"-Probably one of the best examples of the straight guitar tone. The only effect as far as i can tell is the wah used on the lead overdubs.

"Good Times Bad Times"- The rhythm guitar tracks are another great yardstick for the straight Tele to Supro tone. The Leslie is used on the leads, but in my opinion, the rest of the guitars are the straight Tele through the Supro tone.

"Babe I'm Gonna Leave You"- the electric rhythm guitar track...also sounds like straight Tele to Supro.

"Dazed and Confused"- The main slightly overdriven guitar track again sounds like Tele straight through to the Supro. At several points there are overdubbed Tonebender shaped guitars, but the main slightly overdriven track is the one to focus on.

"I Can't Quit You Baby"- A shining example of the Tele into the Supro...the neck pickup is used on the majority of the track, but the treble pickup is engaged during the solo.

"How Many More Times" - same as on "Dazed and Confused" the main slightly overdriven guitar track is the main part to focus on-- even though there is what I hear as a fuzzed electric piano or board overdriven guitar and Hammond organ at various points and of course Tonebender driven lead guitar on this track.

"You Shook Me" features Octavia and fuzz (probably generated by the Octavia) and this song is probably the hardest to discern example of a Supro tone. The Octavia and fuzz drowns out whatever pure signal is present...

AND (of course) the solo on "Stairway To Heaven".

To me, the best candidates for clips are "Communication Breakdown", "I Can't Quit You Baby" and the rhythm guitar on "Good Times Bad Times".

For some reason, every time someone demonstrates a Supro online they always choose a Les Paul or some other guitar that is completely different from a Telecaster and sooo often the material that is chosen is from an album that likely never featured the Supro. No offense intended, but the lead guitar on "Since I've Been Loving You" was (according to Page) the Les Paul into an "Axis" branded sold state amplifier of British origin. Many other times I've seen people trying to play "Heartbreaker" or "Whole Lotta Love" to demo their Page tones on a Supro or Supro-style reproductions when these tracks were recorded with completely different amps and a Les Paul!

According to Page interviews (and my ears, for whatever they are worth) these recordings that I have listed are the only recordings that Page has mentioned that the Supro amp was used on. I hate to belabor the point, but if the goal is the tone present in these recordings, then these songs really should be the baseline for tone references with a Telecaster and Supro amp or Supro style amp.
Last edited by garbeaj on Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by LeonC » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:33 pm

Thanks guys.

Mike - yeah, man, I loves that way that amp feeds back!!

Yeah garbeaj, I certainly could go to further lengths to attempt to mimic JP (or others) from whom I borrow tidbits for demos. I do in fact have a Tele and I do use it on a lot of my demos (including one of the early ones of my 1624T). But generally speaking, when I'm playing some tidbit from JP, Jimi, Jeff Beck, Clapton, whoever, I'm more concerned about getting a good sound and the right feel more than I am in attempting to employ precisely the same gear (to the extent that I really even know what was used).

If I was setting out to do a demo in which the whole point was to precisely nail some guy's sound using the same gear...then of course, I'd be more concerned about doing just that.

BTW...I do indeed have a Tele and use it in a lot of me demos, including some older ones of my original 1624T.

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by mightymike » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:16 pm

I've never looked at a Supro schematic, but I loved that warm clean to breakup and easy feedback probably better than a Fender or Dumble. It has me wondering If I could take a plexi and create a Supro inspired channel. I would love to build that amp.

I just want to add that your workmanship is show quality. Not a spec of flux anywhere. Chrome like solder joints. That level of detail has not gone unnoticed. I have a man crush on your amp now. Lol..

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by garbeaj » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:39 pm

LeonC wrote:If I was setting out to do a demo in which the whole point was to precisely nail some guy's sound using the same gear...then of course, I'd be more concerned about doing just that.

BTW...I do indeed have a Tele and use it in a lot of me demos, including some older ones of my original 1624T.
I understand what you are saying...but would you not agree that the reason that Supro amps have gone through the roof in price and the reason that the overwhelming vast majority of people who are interested in the amp in the first place are interested in it because of the association with Page who has stated that he used a Supro with the Telecaster in the instances that I have noted? It just seems like it would be beneficial to demo this specific tone because of the HUGE interest in Page's classic first album and "Stairway..." solo tones.

I really feel that most people in online demo videos that feature a Supro choose to demo their amp by playing Page licks, but most have no idea that they are demoing the wrong songs with the wrong guitars!

I'm aware that other great players have used Supros besides Page (David Lindley has probably used every Supro/Valco amp ever made) but seriously I think we all know it is the Page first album and Stairway solo tone that virtually everyone is chasing. Hence the title of this thread:)

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by garbeaj » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:55 pm

I still don't understand why every Supro amp I've ever heard sounds exactly live my Sears Silvertone 1482 amp or an old Ampeg Reverberocket. Maybe I'm just tone deaf, but I have still never heard any Supro, Valco or any recreation thereof that sounds anything like the Page tones that I have specified. I know it is to do with the mic'ing and the ambient recording quality and various other factors, but still I have to say nothing comes close to what I hear in the recordings.

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Re: The Page Stairway Supro amp Mystery.

Post by LeonC » Fri Nov 08, 2013 12:57 pm

Thanks again Mike; really my work is not pro level. I'm not a hack, but there are guys out there who are WAY more anal about this stuff than me....WAY MORE, LOL. But thanks.

Really...I don't think you can realistically add "a Supro channel" to a Marshall amp. Here's why: the reason these amps sound the way they do (other than speakers, of course) is because of how the whole circuit works together. Valco (makers of Supro brand) did some funny things that were made to work together. They used low voltages, very low value filter caps on the back end (often just a 20, and two 10uF caps) and then added .05uF caps to ground off the plates on the preamp tubes to act as filters in each stage. So their low voltages, low filtering plus odd filtering in each pre-amp stage combined can't really be built into an amp that's already set up for higher voltages and a lot more filtering. They also used rather small OTs relative to say Fender or later Ampegs. This has got to contribute to the sound. Then there's the Valco paraphase PI... and heavy reliance on ceramic disc caps in the preamp...well...that part you could do...but you'd be missing all the other important design features. Hard to imagine it coming out sounding like a real Supro (or even close, really).

garbeaj - Silvertone 1482s sound like Supros? No, they don't...not to me. I had a 1482 (and I've got a youtube clip or two of it on my channel) and it was a really cool little amp...but my favorite 2x6V6 (or 2x6973) Supros will eat it for a snack!! The 1482 has nowheres near the volume or aggressiveness of the cooler Valcos. The 1482 simply does not pack the punch of a good Supro Supreme or an old Supro 1624T (the version with one tone knob). My 1482, even with a much more efficient speaker, was just not usable in a band...whereas I can gig with my little 1x10 Supreme--pedal-less if I want to--and still get asked to turn down, LOL!

I've still got a Silvertone 1433 too, which is Danelectro's 2x6L6 + 15" spkr, older cousin of the 1482, and it's quite a bit louder, a little more aggressive...wonderful sounding amp (also came with a horrid Fisher speaker, LOL, which I subsequently replaced). But it too gets eaten for lunch by my 2x6L6 Valcos when it comes to aggressive sounds...they're just not in the same ballpark.

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