Wah in Front of Fuzz

Zoso · Post by **Zoso** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:38 pm

I have a Fulltone'70 Fuzz pedal, which I love BTW. It sounds great, but there is one small problem. I also have a Dunlop 535q wah (the one with the adjustable freq. sweep) and when I use it in front of the wah it sounds like ass. Noisy as hell, very shrill, and you can't control the fuzz with the guitar volume anymore. Plus the "wah" effect has no character at all. I can put the wah afer the fuzz and it mostly fixes all that , but then I don't get the sounds I'm after by feeding a fuzz with a wah. You know, that Hendrixy almost Octavia honk when you leave the wah in a certain position. I've tried all the different sweep settings on the wah, and it deosn't seem to matter. I was just wondering if anybody else had ever had this probelm and if there was something I could do to fix it. I also thought maybe there was something about the circuitry of that particular wah that didn't work well with fuzzes, and maybe I should get a more conventional wah. If anybody has any answers or suggestions, please let me know.

BB · Post by BB » Sun Feb 20, 2005 11:04 pm

This is about as famous a problem as there is with guitar rigs. Its not just wahs. Theres a whole host of effects that dont mix well with fuzzs. Try putting a Boss pedal before a fuzz. There is hope

foxroxelectronics.com

The wah retro fit installs a buffer at the end of the wah circuit to make it work with a fuzz. Analog man sells these so does teddy at Musictoyz.

Country Boy Shane · Post by **Country Boy Shane** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:20 am

I have your same problem with the same pedal. Switched the order and now everything is rockin'.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:22 am

Country Boy Shane wrote:I have your same problem with the same pedal. Switched the order and now everything is rockin'.

you could do that. That is the traditional remedy but using a wah after distortion of any kind just isnt the same. I dont have the buffer installed but I will. Just havent gotten around to it yet.

Zoso · Post by **Zoso** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:27 am

BB wrote:This is about as famous a problem as there is with guitar rigs. Its not just wahs. Theres a whole host of effects that dont mix well with fuzzs. Try putting a Boss pedal before a fuzz. There is hope

foxroxelectronics.com

The wah retro fit installs a buffer at the end of the wah circuit to make it work with a fuzz. Analog man sells these so does teddy at Musictoyz.

Cool, I'll have to check it out. The only thing that gets me though is that there are A LOT of guys who use fuzz after wahs, surely all of them don't have buffers installed in their wahs. Or hell, maybe they do. Perhaps that is one of the mods Roger Mayer did to Jimi's wah. I'm not saying the buffer isn't a good idea, I'm just wondering if there is something else I'm missing.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:05 am

The problem only exists running the wah before the fuzz. But for the problem Im sure most people would very much prefer the wah before the fuzz instead of after. Dave Fox has many clips on his site. Its not a new thing and a lot of people do it but I really doubt Jimi had that. Though he definitely did use his wah before the fuzz at later gigs in videos and pics which you would think something different must be goin on.

Zoso · Post by **Zoso** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:36 am

I doubt Jimi had one either, but yet his wah sounds are killer. Maybe there is just something extra weird about the circuit of the 535q that makes the problem a lot more noticeable. The clips on the foxrox site of the wah into fuzz w/o the buffer still are better than mine, in fact I didn't think they were really that bad. I can live with a little loss of range, as I think that is part if Jimi's wah sound. (another reason I doubt he had a buffer of any kind) I don't care if I can't play "Shaft" with my fuzz pedal on, but mine is just horrible.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 2:36 pm

Believe me theyre bad. I use the same setup as Dave. A Captain Coconut 2 and a Teese Picture Wah and its unuseable. You can put it after or use the buffer. I tend to not use the fuzz and wah at the same time. Using the wah after the fuzz works if your backed off on the fuzz with your guitar volume but as soon as you turn up and the fuzz is really driven the wah takes on that quality they get when placed after distortion. Its like half a volume pedal. When in the bass position it gets very low and completely blanketed and the sweep is just crazy. Not that Im against crazy sounds but noone wants that all the time. Jimi never sounded likt that nd for the life of me I could never understand why. I doubt he used a buffer mod in his wah but at the same time the guys that worked on his pedals at the time would definitely have know what the problem was and how to put a buffer in there. Its not a new thing.

Zoso · Post by **Zoso** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:06 pm

After looking inside my wah last night, it look slike it would be a nightmare to install a buffer. All the connections are with ribbon wire, so, well, you can see my agony. I guess for now I'll just have to put the wah after the fuzz, but I'll probably be getting a new wah as soon as I can.

Zoso · Post by **Zoso** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 12:21 am

After looking at the install instructions, I may be able to pull it off, since I would only have to disconnect one wire. So let me get this straight. Turning on the fuzz is loading down the wah circuit and causing it to sound and react badly. By installing the buffer, you are isolating the circuit of the wah from the output and therefore from the fuzz, so the wah behaves as normal since the circuit can't "see" the fuzz and is no longer loaded down by it. Is that right?

Zoso · Post by **Zoso** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:11 am

Nevermind, I've been doing some research and I found the answer.

I also found something else. One of the remedies for the wah/fuzz conundrum is to put a resistor at the input of the fuzz to increase its input impedance. This will reduce the sustain and power of the fuzz somewhat, but it makes sense. After reading this, I was looking at a schematic for a Roger Mayer Axis Fuzz and noticed a 2M2 resistor right at the input, between it and ground. Since Mayer supposedly based this pedal off of a mod he did to Hendrix's fuzz, I wonder if he added this to solve Jimi's wah problem. It would explain why Jimi never had a bad wah sound with his fuzz. I looked at schems for several other old fuzzes, and none of them had a resistor there. Only the Mayer Axis and the Mayer Octavia, which only makes sense. I just thought I'd throw this out there, maybe that resistor isn't for that purpose. But it seems to be in the right spot. Here is a link to the schematic. What do you guys think?

http://bryant02.home.att.net/schematics ... zschem.gif

McGoogle McDougal · Post by **McGoogle McDougal** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:05 pm

Hi Zoso,
This solution is a mod that was also worked into the Fulltone '69 (via the "bias" knob) and the Captain Coconut (via an internal trimpot). It does not restore full range of the wah, but enough for me. With my Fulltone '69 I just activated the wah and then adjsuted the bias and contour knobs until the weird oscillation sounds went away and some useable range came back to the wah. Same thing on the Captain Coconut. It does reduce the gain from the fuzz, so I only like having it set like that when the amp is already cooking pretty good on it's own (who wants to play their Marshall at low volume anyways?)

Hendrix did have to deal with this problem live. He apparently often used stock fuzz faces on stage but usualy the custom/customized Roger Mayer stuff in the studio. I've heard lot's of live recordings where he kicks the wah on with the fuzz and it just kinda goes trebly and squeals at certain spots. The real strong wah parts on Voodoo Child (slight return) are done with out the fuzz kicked in.

Eamon

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 4:50 pm

Zoso wrote:Nevermind, I've been doing some research and I found the answer.

I also found something else. One of the remedies for the wah/fuzz conundrum is to put a resistor at the input of the fuzz to increase its input impedance. This will reduce the sustain and power of the fuzz somewhat, but it makes sense. After reading this, I was looking at a schematic for a Roger Mayer Axis Fuzz and noticed a 2M2 resistor right at the input, between it and ground. Since Mayer supposedly based this pedal off of a mod he did to Hendrix's fuzz, I wonder if he added this to solve Jimi's wah problem. It would explain why Jimi never had a bad wah sound with his fuzz. I looked at schems for several other old fuzzes, and none of them had a resistor there. Only the Mayer Axis and the Mayer Octavia, which only makes sense. I just thought I'd throw this out there, maybe that resistor isn't for that purpose. But it seems to be in the right spot. Here is a link to the schematic. What do you guys think?

http://bryant02.home.att.net/schematics ... zschem.gif

Ill tell you what. Its easy enough to try out. Wire a set of jacks together and jump a 2M resistor between the hot and ground lugs. Use the jacks like a pedal before the fuzz. Electronically its no different just because its outside the fuzz enclosure. If you have an old box around use that.

Whats going to happen is the fuzz will sound more like fuzz does when you back off your guitars volume pot. You loose the fuzz intensity. That value of 2M2 is probably a compromise point somewhere betwen reasonable intensity of both effects. Too high a value or no resistor at all the the fuzz is at its full intensity and the wah doesnt work. Too low a resistance and the wah works well but the fuzz sounds as if youve turned the guitar volume down to where the fuzz is more like mild overdrive. So theres a medium he probably found at 2M2.

The FoxRox type buffer would negate that. The fuzz would still work as it should. The only drawback would be expense, installation and any artifacts it might add to the tone. On the other hand the change in the fuzzes tone is a lot more dramatic on the Mayer type mod. Though with this methode it is much easier and if your like me you hardly ever have the fuzz going with the guitar volume all the way up for that full bore spit grit sound. But the buffer would solve this problem in a way were both effects would work the way they should. I doubt Jimi had this done as his fuzzes always sounded pretty damn intense. Of coarse, like whats been said, he had guys that would work those problems out for him but live I doubt anything like this was on his fuzz.

Try it and see for yourself.

McGoogle McDougal · Post by **McGoogle McDougal** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:15 pm

Hi Billy, I think you misread my comments. On the Captain Coconut I did not say that adjusting the grit conrol helped the wah work better. I referred to the internal trimpot on the FuzzFoot portion of the circuit board. Dave Fox even has a section in the Fuzzfoot part of the manual detailing this.

When I mentioned a "bias" control, I was referring to the pot labeled "bias" on the Fulltone '69. I don't know exactly what that control does (as in I don't know if it actually adjusts the bias on the transistors), but turning it counter clockwise indeed has a positive effect on wah-fuzz interaction. It seems to do exactly the same thing that the internal trimpot on the Captain Coconut does.

Ironically, my '69 pedal has an internal trimpot that seems to do the same thing as the "grit" control on the Captain Coconut does.

Eamon

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Tue Feb 22, 2005 8:28 pm

You were right I just once agian was confused by the use of bias for that control. Its always confused me that Mike called the input impedance adjustment a bias. The grit or internal trimmer in the 69 is more of a bias then the input impedance is. Im not totally sure but it varies the voltage to one of the transistors to control how they interact and clip. I forgot they are backwards in those 2 pedals. It accomplishes the same thing as a resister on the input but the same problem I talked about before arises. Your turning the fuzz into more and more of an overdrive. I like to keep my fuzz sounding closer to the vintage thing though I almost always dial down my volume knob to kill the intensity a bit. I still like to have the choice though. It is one thing to do if you dont mind killing off the fuzz intensity which I doubt many people would since full on fuzz is so over the top but Id think most would still like to have the choice to control it with the guitars volume. Its a pain in the ass thats for sure.

Zoso the 70 is one of my favorite pedals as well but unfortunately the trimmer in a 70 is what I consider a 'Bias' (the grit on the CC) type not the input impedance type (like the bias on the 69) so you cant try it that way. If you want to see what its about try using a few jacks like I said earlier or put a large value pot in line bewteen the wah and fuzz using an empty enclosure if you have one.