Are there modern tubes that sound as good as best NOS?

[myfoot]

Not trying to detract from your experience here, but the only thing I'd take Groove Tubes as an authority on is how to advertise, market, and eventually sell out to a bigger company.

[dtdionne]

God, what is so hard about making tubes like they did back then, with all the technology they have today is should be a piece of cake It just makes me want to cry, literally. Do you guys have any experience with the GT XF2 mullard ressiues?

Dude, i am going through the exact same thing...it crushes me. I swear I wish'ed ida never bought that first set of fat boys, the difference to me was as apparant as mule kick. I should a/b them tonight.

[Structo]

Wow!
Old post from April.

What happened to Will (thousandshirts) anyway?

[dtdionne]

Yeah...i'm not sure what happened to will, i read in a post that he either left or something but i miss him, he was a cool cat.

[slashsound]

Sadly, the company ( Blackburn Microtech solutions )that was going to make mullard tubes with the original machines went broke and apparently never got to produce them....this really stinks. Ever since my last post has there been any company producing original mullard quality tubes?

[demonufo]

Jeezus. Where'd you get that info from.
They never had the original machines for starters.
They were never going to make "mullard" or even mullard style tubes, the plan was to come up with original ideas from the offset, that were compatible with ecc81-83.
And they DID get to produce some before pulling the plug. I have two of their ECC83 equivalents sat in a drawer.

I thought you were Mr Extensive Research?

Don't you get it?
Nobody will ever produce Mullard quality tubes again. The metallurgy will never have the same quality again, since raw materials are no longer of the same quality.
Using original machines and original plans will not get us similar quality tubes. There is sooo much more to it than that.

[dtdionne]

I've been using NOS Sylvania ax7's and 6ca7's exclusively for almost 2 years...blisfully, but at a cost. Fortunatly I have a fool proof remedy when I start feeling particularlly guilty about money, I just drop in a quad of EH 6ca7's etc and the guilt just melts away.

There's just nothing that sounds like the vintage 6ca7's with welded plates for late 70's EVH tone.

On the bright side, the Digi 11R absolutely blew me away, they really hit the nail on the head with that one. The freely downloadable EVH patches are breathtaking. Word of caution, while the 11 plugin is identical and half as much as the 11 rack it (plugin) will not get the same tone without an exceedingly expensive A/D pre. I have the plugin and first tried it with a few of my midline pre's (Mackie Onyx, Liquid Channel, etc) and it wasn't until I broke out the Digi pre did I start to drool. So although the 11R is twice as much as the plugin, it's builtin pre is fantastic because it is totally optmized (electrically, impedance, capacitance etc) for guitar pickup input. In fact, I read that EVH himself got one...hopefully he can find his way back to his late 70's tone.

[Tone Slinger]

It seems that getting SOLID and HONEST info about tubes is getting as rare as actual nos or slightly used tubes are !

I think that a LARGE part of the equation is how the guitarist plays - meaning how loud and how long, etc. New manufactured tubes, due to various reasons mentioned earlier, WILL NOT have the life span or be able to handle the screen and plate voltages that the vintage ones did/can. That is pretty much in agreement from the manufacturors on down to the vendors.

A more debatable point is the actual tone of the new vs. the old. If you run a old Marshall or Hiwatt, and want the most musical and natural breakup while retaining that great headroom, then the old stuff is for you.

If you gig ALOT and play real loud and/or attenuate, then the old stuff is for you.

But, if you arent gigging but a couple of times a month and rehearsing a few times, then new tubes will do you right. Even gigging reguarly alright, depending on your amp and how you run it.

As an example to this, EVH on that first '78 tour would have had MAJOR problems if all he had were the EH 6ca7 tubes. He would have had to have them matched and biased and burnt in, and since he was diming, he would have not gotten much life out of them, BUT, Ed had 100 count boxes of Sylvania 6ca7's, so he managed , though even those tubes didnt last as long as people might have thought, due to being ran with the amps total power, with biasing ran as high as it would go and variacing down. Tubes of today cant take that kind of abuse.

To use an analogy, A strat sounds real good when played clean, it also sounds great when distorted, BUT, it loses that lacy , acoustic type quality if distorted past a certain point (like a Mesa,etc).

Tubes are like that, with the old ones being VERY full and robust at moderate distortion levels, but sort of sound like anything else past that point.

The eq and compression of ALL the new tubes are different, when comparing Russian to slavic or Chinese.


In my opinion, if you use much gain (like a bit more than old Townsend or Page), then NOS tubes wont do anything for you except last longer, as compared to good modern tubes.

For slash, believe it or not, the regular EH el-34's(not the 'Mullard' version) sound real good, as compared to other's, especially in an artist/jubilee. They have a good balance of things, like how the mutes feel in your hands, and a real good mid range. Winged c's are very soft and smooth in comparison.

[slashsound]

T

Jeezus. Where'd you get that info from.
They never had the original machines for starters.
They were never going to make "mullard" or even mullard style tubes, the plan was to come up with original ideas from the offset, that were compatible with ecc81-83.
And they DID get to produce some before pulling the plug. I have two of their ECC83 equivalents sat in a drawer.

I thought you were Mr Extensive Research?

Don't you get it?
Nobody will ever produce Mullard quality tubes again. The metallurgy will never have the same quality again, since raw materials are no longer of the same quality.
Using original machines and original plans will not get us similar quality tubes. There is sooo much more to it than that.

actually I got my info from this same thread....go back up I think and there was a mention of this company reissuing mullard tubes....thanks

[demonufo]

Jeezus. Where'd you get that info from.
They never had the original machines for starters.
They were never going to make "mullard" or even mullard style tubes, the plan was to come up with original ideas from the offset, that were compatible with ecc81-83.
And they DID get to produce some before pulling the plug. I have two of their ECC83 equivalents sat in a drawer.

I thought you were Mr Extensive Research?

Don't you get it?
Nobody will ever produce Mullard quality tubes again. The metallurgy will never have the same quality again, since raw materials are no longer of the same quality.
Using original machines and original plans will not get us similar quality tubes. There is sooo much more to it than that.

actually I got my info from this same thread....go back up I think and there was a mention of this company reissuing mullard tubes....thanks

Then it was completely wrong. There was never anything like that written on the actual Tubetech website. Ever.

[Tone Slinger]

I think, having recently been messing with various makes and vintages of tubes (vintages of wine and whiskey I like better though ) that new tubes hold thier own, AND the simple fact that you have hundreds of thousands new tubes to be graded and matched, compared to COMPLETELY relying on whatever nos tubes you get (usually not best of the breed), means that better continuity and 'flow' of 'push pull' ab type valve performance will be of the utmost importance, NOT how rugged or long lasting a tube may be.

I think that a safe and realistic comparison would be to say that old tubes of the '50's-'70's would be , on average '60% longer lasting than the '80's to present stuff, and possibly better sounding (the old stuff) due to being able to hold up long enough to draw a conclusion (in certain amps run a certain way that is ).

Some of the old amps operate at levels based on the old valves that were around when the circuits (of these amps ) were being devised. This being the case, new tubes WILL NOT last as long as older ones. The tone will be less distinguishable between old and new though.

New tubes could be just as good in durability as the old ones since EVERYTHING overlaps (you know father to son, etc) meaning that those old 'tube' dudes didnt just all die off without people learning from them in 'overlaping' (generational degree's). And this idea about raw materials being degenerate as compared to 30 or 40 yrs ago is just not correct.

This world has STOCKPILES and almost endless surplusses of these minerals, etc that are used in vacuum tubes.

The MAIN REASON that new tubes arent as long lasting as tubes of yesteryear (and in SOME cases not as good SOUNDING) is that transistors simply outperformed them in the '60's in MOST applications. The military as well as most other consumers simply didnt CARE what was being used.


New tube manufacturors could EASILY replicate the old tubes in longevity, BUT, it wouldnt be in thier best interest ($$$$) to NOT do so, since tubes are only being used in 5% of the things that they used to be used in.


These tube manufactures would lose a 95% buissiness (as compared to the early '60's) if they made the SAME product.

Also, these tube manufacturors of the present would come out on the wrong end in another way, if they were to faithfully replicate the old stuff, because, it would be a catch 22. They would either have to charge way to much (which would be BAD for amp builders) which would affect people from using tubes in the first place.











I DO NOT buy into this hype that the knowledge of tube construction is lost

[Scumback Speakers]

Tone Slinger: I don't know what tubes you've been comparing, but I've done some research and buying over the last several years. (Some...hah!)

New production: Winged C EL 34's are decent. Do they compare to NOS? No way in hell. Whatever NOS tubes you were using were either not that good, or they were burned up some time ago.

I was out playing at a party today and one of the guitarists asked me what amp I had. He had an identical amp. He then asked the rest of the rig details. At the end of it, the difference between his rig and mine were two things, NOS glass and Scumbacks vs his current production G12M's.

He shook his head at the end of the discussion and said "My Express doesn't sound anywhere near as good as yours does. Thanks for the tip on the NOS glass, I'll be getting a 65w M75 from you soon."

So, I don't know what you compared, but I can't believe your old glass was working right if you thought new production tubes were comparable.

And as for the metals/chemicals, etc, I'm sure these other members are right. EPA, and other pollution killing individuals have severely curtailed what tube makers can use legally, so I seriously doubt any new tube will match old production/NOS tubes for tone...ever...not to mention longevity.

YMMV, and apparently it does.

I've got a stash of EL34's and 12AX7's to last me my lifetime...as long as I'm only around another 20 years.

[Tone Slinger]

Maybe I got some fucked up stuff. I got my mind set on getting as much old stuff as I can from now on, 'cause I swear, Russian (yes Fuckin' Saratov city ) EH el-34's sound as warm and brown as I've heard.

[Bunnest]

Due to the recent scarcity and cost of NOS EL34s, and my endless search, I re read this post...EVEN RFTs DESTROY Winged Cs or any other modern tube. THAT'S ALL I GOT TO SAY ABOUT THAT....Mr. Gump

[Tone Slinger]

I hear alot of talk and opinions, but I'm gonna try and get some clips up comparing my ever growing stash.