2204 el34 recomendations?

[jtunes]

Hi , I have a ceriatone 2204 which I got of a friend who had a mod done to give it more gain though the V1 I suspect ( I am not a tech head so don't ask for full shems of the mod) , I find it pretty brutal and flabby bottom end when the pre volume is turned right up with 12ax7's... I have put a nos jan 5751 in there that has tamed the beast a bit .I feel it is a bit shrill in the top end even with the 12ax7 . The power tubes in it at the moment are shuang? ( chinese ) that dont sound too bad but is there any others you can recomend that would maybe sweeten up the top end , keep that awesome mid crunch and retain nice defined bass?

Cheers Jon

[demonufo]

I'd be looking to correct and tame that mod before changing tubes myself. My go to tube for modern production EL34 is always Winged C though.

Probably would be wise to attenuate a bit of bass early on in the circuit though, by tweaking the circuit a little, then maybe adding it back later, either in the PI, or even by boosting in the NFB line. But without knowing exactly where the gain has been added and just how far the modder went, it's a little difficult to comment on.
I suspect that however he might have simply dropped the V1B cathode resistor to much too low a value, rather than adding gain in different stages.

[stef]

I'd be looking to correct and tame that mod before changing tubes myself. My go to tube for modern production EL34 is always Winged C though.

What about EH EL34? JJ EL34 (not 34L)?

[demonufo]

I'd be looking to correct and tame that mod before changing tubes myself. My go to tube for modern production EL34 is always Winged C though.

What about EH EL34? JJ EL34 (not 34L)?

Just about anything EXCEPT the EH EL34.
The JJ's don't have enough mids for my liking, and given the amp in question is described as shrill and with a flabby bottom, I wouldn't be picking them. The only JJ I like is the 6V6S. Now that is a useful tube.

[stef]

Just about anything EXCEPT the EH EL34.

What was the problem with them? Biasing or tone? Or both
I've heard that EH sound nice but the biasing is problematic...Is that true?

[demonufo]

Just about anything EXCEPT the EH EL34.

What was the problem with them? Biasing or tone? Or both
I've heard that EH sound nice but the biasing is problematic...Is that true?

Didn't have biasing trouble, but the tone was horrendous in a 2204 (actually, a 4104 I had at the time, and IIRC a customers JCM900). Never again. Spiky, thin, harsh, not much impact either. Bear in mind I have had a good stash of real good tubes for a long time though. It's not often I'd use any modern tubes for myself, except Winged C's. I have a few pairs from '99 and a few from '00 that are awesome, and a couple of sets from '06 that are not as good. I've had a few more recent sets that were about the same as the '06 sets that ended up in customers amps.
I'm no longer buying any power tubes for myself (unless I can find a bargain on some nice 6CA7's ), since I've got more than I can realistically use in a lifetime now though, so even some of my nicer tubes end up in customers amps now. (I say customers, realistically, that's just the odd amp every month or so that a local guitar shop sends my way for simple servicing/biasing! )
I think given your amp is currently too harsh, I stand by my statement that the EH is probably the worst tube you could put in there. In many other amps, they may be great, but I mostly see Marshalls, the odd modern Laney, and sometimes the odd Peavey thrown in.

[stef]

Just about anything EXCEPT the EH EL34.

What was the problem with them? Biasing or tone? Or both
I've heard that EH sound nice but the biasing is problematic...Is that true?

I think given your amp is currently too harsh, I stand by my statement that the EH is probably the worst tube you could put in there.

My amp (NMV SL metal) is not harsh at all, it sounds really good with 4 old siemens el34 but thank you for your answer and nice explanation! I think you've just talked me out of EH for my new set of power tubes.. =C= 's are expensive and with lots of headroom so I think I'll maybe go for JJ EL34 (for half the price and more breakup...

[demonufo]

Sorry, got you mixed up with the original poster.
I wouldn't say the winged C have lots of headroom. Especially the older ones. In fact '99 or '00 production (but again, quite expensive compared to moder production) are the closest thing to a real Mullard tube from the last 25 years easily. Not breathtakingly close, just closer than anything else.
Also, bear in mind my comments regarding modern production, I've not tried any of them for nearly two years now (except the C's). And haven't tried any Chinese tubes, although word has it most are not proper EL34 construction anyway.

[elronhoover]

I wouldn't say the winged C have lots of headroom. Especially the older ones. In fact '99 or '00 production (but again, quite expensive compared to moder production) are the closest thing to a real Mullard tube from the last 25 years easily. Not breathtakingly close, just closer than anything else.

I have a stash of mid-90's svetlana EL34's (the same manufactured predecessor of the current winged C, not the current svetlana-branded production). I recently got ahold of a pair of current prod. winged C and did a quick A/B comparison in a '76 DR-504, and I thought that the older svetlana-branded sounded fuller as well as tighter at higher volume (which in a hiwatt is pretty loud!). Both pairs were pretty close to each other in gm and current draw too, FWIW.

Visually, the old 90's ones have thicker copper winding/support rods, and the plate coating is a more uniform matte grey, where the new winged-c has thinner rods and a mottled plate coating, sort of like a galvanized water pail kind of look.

The difference wasn't immense, but it was noticeable, but keep in mind this is only one pair of each vintage I'm comparing. I like either of them better than current Mullard EL34 reissues personally..

Dave

[demonufo]

I like either of them better than current Mullard EL34 reissues personally..

Dave

Yep. I wouldn't class the re-issue Mullards as even a reasonably good tube. The specs and current draw can vary massively over different batches, and the reliability is pretty poor to say the least. I'd definitely pick JJ's over these, and I don't even like JJ's.

Been a long time since I've had any mid 90's svets, I really can't remember how I liked them back then. The 99's I have are great though (which were the last with the old Svetlana logo) and the 00's (with the Winged C logo) are just the same as far as I can hear. They certainly started going downhill within a couple of years though. Same old story with just about every manufacturer on the planet. Except some of the Chinese factories which seem to be putting in some big efforts to improve if the hype is believed. I still like my old mid/late 90's chinese pre's. I bet that the modern ones aren't as good though.

[elronhoover]

They certainly started going downhill within a couple of years though. Same old story with just about every manufacturer on the planet. Except some of the Chinese factories which seem to be putting in some big efforts to improve if the hype is believed. I still like my old mid/late 90's chinese pre's. I bet that the modern ones aren't as good though.

True that!

Those c. 1998 chinese ax7's with the silver plates are very nice tubes, and time has shown that they hold up really well, even in combos.

One thing I learned, either new prod. or NOS, is that if you find something that you like, stock up on it while you can get 'em. Old svet's are a good case in point. I did that this year with gold lion kt-66, once I worked them for a while and decided I liked them. You never know when the tide's gonna change with this stuff. Ever hear about the thugs going in and smashing up the russian factory that new sensor had taken over a few years back?

Speaking of gold lion, I wonder how thier kt-77 is. Anyone tried them out?

Dave

[demonufo]

Speaking of gold lion, I wonder how thier kt-77 is. Anyone tried them out?

A couple of the guys here love them. I can't recall who though. Kevin is selling a slightly used pair in the classifieds though.
Just looked at the construction of my '06 winged C's vs my '99 and '00 versions, and the construction and appearance is identical EXCEPT the getters on the '06 are not angled like the others. All other materials and components appear exactly the same. Which is probably partway why they don't sound much different to the earlier ones (I mean cork sniffing close, compared to the last couple of years production). IIRC I even got a set of '06's from George once not so long back, so for anybody in the market for Winged C's, it may well pay to send a PM to woolymammoth to see if they have any left in stock.

[demonufo]

Ever hear about the thugs going in and smashing up the russian factory that new sensor had taken over a few years back?

Not so much smash it up, that was the russian mafia trying to forcefully take over ownership of the company. Real scary shit, the way it sounded at the time.

[elronhoover]

Speaking of gold lion, I wonder how thier kt-77 is. Anyone tried them out?

A couple of the guys here love them. I can't recall who though. Kevin is selling a slightly used pair in the classifieds though.
Just looked at the construction of my '06 winged C's vs my '99 and '00 versions, and the construction and appearance is identical EXCEPT the getters on the '06 are not angled like the others. All other materials and components appear exactly the same. Which is probably partway why they don't sound much different to the earlier ones (I mean cork sniffing close, compared to the last couple of years production). IIRC I even got a set of '06's from George once not so long back, so for anybody in the market for Winged C's, it may well pay to send a PM to woolymammoth to see if they have any left in stock.

The kt-77's are pricey, but may be a good alternative for somebody looking for current production stuff and/or wanting to try a tetrode. I really like the g-l kt-66 (compared to valve arts)...

Dave

[elronhoover]

Ever hear about the thugs going in and smashing up the russian factory that new sensor had taken over a few years back?

Not so much smash it up, that was the russian mafia trying to forcefully take over ownership of the company. Real scary shit, the way it sounded at the time.

Good thing Mike already had the experience of getting hassled and run out right here in NYC/USA back in the day!

Anyone who was into tubes back in the 80's-90's probably can remember the volatility and 'here today, gone tomorrow' some types and brands went through..that at least seems better over the last several years..

Dave