The Definitive Bluesbreaker Speaker Thread...

This is what it sounds like, when cones cry.

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Brad737
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The Definitive Bluesbreaker Speaker Thread...

Post by Brad737 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 11:30 am

Hello all,
I'd like to start a thread discussing the different speaker options for my next amp, a 1962 Bluesbreaker combo clone. I'd like to capture the Eric Clapton tone on the John Mayall "Beano" album. I've read many conflicting reports about missing Greenbacks, Silver Vox Alnicos, ceramic, alnico, open-back, closed-back, you name it! It's almost as bad as the EVH Brown Sound debate. My questions are:

1. Would you go for a closed or open-back cabinet?

2. Which speakers, or combination of speakers would you think gets the best "Beano" tone?

3. Is there a difference in tone by going with 8-ohm or 16-ohm speakers?

4. Any new ideas?

Thanks,
Brad
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Post by shakti » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:05 pm

Definitely open-back.

I'd go with alnico speakers, each 16 ohm and wired in parallell for 8 ohms, then run it mismatched with the amp at 16 ohms.

I've tried my Metro JTM45 with a pair of silver alnico Celestions in my '65 AC30. They were 8 ohm speakers wired in series for 16 ohms. I thought the tone was *very* similar - the kind of sag and compression, yet "bark" was definitely there. However, I've read that Marshall combos of the time typically used 16 ohm speakers in parallell. Not sure if they were running mismatched, though.

Others can definitely tell you more about this, but on JTM45s, aren't we kind of mismatching when we run the amp at 16 ohms into a 16 ohm load? Something about the primary impedance not really being optimized for KT66s to begin with? So running it at 16 ohms into 8 ohms actually takes the primary impedance to something closer to what KT66s want to see? Take that with several spoons of salt, though...

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Post by Brad737 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:10 pm

Any recommendations for Alnicos? I've heard great things about the Celestion Golds. I've also heard the Weber Silver Bells are supposed to sound nice. Is there a problem running speakers of different wattage, i.e. a 50-watt 16-ohm speaker, with something like a 25-watt 16-ohm?

Thanks,
Brad
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Post by Roe » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:47 pm

Brad737 wrote:Any recommendations for Alnicos? I've heard great things about the Celestion Golds. I've also heard the Weber Silver Bells are supposed to sound nice. Is there a problem running speakers of different wattage, i.e. a 50-watt 16-ohm speaker, with something like a 25-watt 16-ohm?

Thanks,
Brad
try a silver ball and a weber or celestion blue
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Post by Brad737 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 1:57 pm

That's kind of what I was thinking. I want to get an awesome, authentic tone like Clapton got. But I've heard so many good things about some of these "new" speakers, that I'd really like to try them out. I'm just looking for most unbelievable Bluesbreaker tone I can get.

Thanks,
Brad

Roe wrote: try a silver ball and a weber or celestion blue
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Post by yngwie308 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:54 pm

All the original Bluesbreaker combos used the 15 ohm silver Celestion AlNiCo speakers, with Marshall supplied labeling.
The open back original design cabinets with the slanted speaker panel sounds best to me, there were also the 4X10" versions, similar to a Fender Bassman, but for the 'Beano' sound the 2X12" AlNiCo's are the way to go, not ceramic 20 watters, imo :) .
Look at Plexi Palce as they are BB crazy over there :lol:

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Post by Brad737 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 3:59 pm

I'm definitely going to go with alnicos for this amp. My 5150 and my soon-to-arrive 12 series Plexi both use ceramic speakers in 412 cabinets. What do you all recommend for alnicos? I've heard good things about Silver Bells, Blue Dogs, and Celestion Golds.

I used to read the forums at Plexi Palace. I kind of stopped hanging out there.

Thanks,
Brad


yngwie308 wrote:All the original Bluesbreaker combos used the 15 ohm silver Celestion AlNiCo speakers, with Marshall supplied labeling.
The open back original design cabinets with the slanted speaker panel sounds best to me, there were also the 4X10" versions, similar to a Fender Bassman, but for the 'Beano' sound the 2X12" AlNiCo's are the way to go, not ceramic 20 watters, imo :) .
Look at Plexi Palce as they are BB crazy over there :lol:

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Post by yngwie308 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 4:24 pm

Brad, are you using the flat front panel or slanted front cab ?
When I wa at the LA Amp show Don "Toneman" Butler had a Bluesbreaker he built and it had the slant cab and it killed so I would recomend the earlier cab, although it is rarer..
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Plus the earlier cab looks killer with the pinstripe grillcloth and the brass Vox vents of the early JTM's shoot an email to Don :)
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Post by Brad737 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:25 pm

Well, I'm right at the beginning stages right now. I was going to buy a reissue, and then I discovered the Metro Forum, and saw how much better a handwired clone can be than a real Marshall.

I don't have anything other than the Heyboer transformer set so far. I'm going to order my cabinet from Mojo. I haven't checked to see if they have the different styles yet. I was just planning on putting a straight JTM45 in it since it seems everyone hates the "tremelo" and never uses it. I'm just trying to figure out what components I need to make the sweetest-sounding Bluesbreaker I can get.

So far, my "Beano Recipe" looks like this:
- Handwired JTM45 chassis, Sozos, KT66's (popular opinion says to bias to around 40mA.)
- Heyboer Transformers
- White Mojo cabinet
- Open-Back
- Alnico speakers. Possibly Weber Silver Bells, or maybe a mix.

Nothing is written in stone though. I'm very open to suggestions!

BTW, your amp looks gorgeous.

Thanks,
Brad
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Post by 908ssp » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:42 pm

Well I think you have seen my copy before I posted pictures in the JTM45 section of the forum. Here are a couple any way. For speakers I went with original 67s with original 003 cones those could be the same as the ones on the Beano album but they could also be the silvers with the 1777 cones seen earlier. Anyway the good news is the Scumback has just released clones of these very speakers. I haven't heard them yet so I don't know how they sound. I tried to get Scumback to send me set to compare but he selling them already so you should be hearing about them soon. Needless to say I love the way this amp sounds.

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Post by Brad737 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:54 pm

Awesome looking amp. :-)

I just tried to look up the alnico clones on the Southbay website, but couldn't find anything. This might be just the ticket.

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Post by 908ssp » Sun Nov 25, 2007 6:55 pm

Here is a thread that talks all about the new Scumnicos :lol: They are brand new so the web site probably hasn't caught up yet.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... t=scumback

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Post by Brad737 » Sun Nov 25, 2007 7:43 pm

Hmmm...very interesting. I like the fact that there are choices. But it's hard to figure out what's "authentic" since there are so many choices. :-p

908ssp wrote:Here is a thread that talks all about the new Scumnicos :lol: They are brand new so the web site probably hasn't caught up yet.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showth ... t=scumback
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Post by Scumback Speakers » Sun Nov 25, 2007 9:49 pm

Brad & Alex...regarding the Scumnicos and availability. I don't even have any myself yet, as the 1st order shipped out to those who got in on the initial order. I have some extra 65 watt models and I think a couple of 8 ohm 30 watt models, too, I'll have to double check.

Alex, what would you need ohm wise, 16 or 8?
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Post by shakti » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:47 am

Can anyone tell me definitely if the tremolo makes a difference or not? It would be cool to build an exact replica, but if it doesn't make much difference anyway I might not care.

Ceriatone has chassis for a BB with tremolo, and good-looking panels to match. Everything else should be Metroamp, of course!! ;-)

I'd love to try me some of those Scumnicos...

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