The Definitive Bluesbreaker Speaker Thread...

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:48 am

Holy msokes...just saw the photos of that speaker! Kudos, Sir!! That looks *great*! Now imagine some fake Marshall logo stickers on the back of those...

Brad737 · Post by **Brad737** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:18 am

Everyone I've ever talked to says the Marshall version of tremolo sounds like crap. I've only heard one clip of a Bluesbreaker's tremolo, and if it was a good representation of the effect, it would be something I wouldn't use.

Nik was adding the Fender trem circuit to his Bluesbreaker. However, the tubes need to be run cold for the trem to work well. And the KT66's seem to sound a lot better biased hotter...from between 35 to 40 mA. For me, it's more important to have properly biased KT66's, since those are the "correct" Clapton tubes.

I've looked long and hard at the Ceriatone BB kit. But I'd really like to have Sozos or mustards in there, and Nik just can't supply those.

shakti wrote:Can anyone tell me definitely if the tremolo makes a difference or not? It would be cool to build an exact replica, but if it doesn't make much difference anyway I might not care.

Ceriatone has chassis for a BB with tremolo, and good-looking panels to match. Everything else should be Metroamp, of course!!

I'd love to try me some of those Scumnicos...

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:41 am

Yes, I would definitely get everything else from Metroamp and with Sozos. I was just suggesting to use the chassis, if you wanted to add tremolo.

It's just that I heard somebody say that the tremolo circuit influenced the sound even when off - I don't know if that's the case.

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:42 am

While we have Jim from Soutbay here - any plans to make an alnic with a 1777 replica cone?

It's hard to tell if the Bluesbreaker speaker is the 1777 cone or the 102 003, maybe you would know when Celestion introduced the 102 003 cone?

Roe · Post by **Roe** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:38 am

Brad737 wrote:Well, I'm right at the beginning stages right now. I was going to buy a reissue, and then I discovered the Metro Forum, and saw how much better a handwired clone can be than a real Marshall.

I don't have anything other than the Heyboer transformer set so far. I'm going to order my cabinet from Mojo. I haven't checked to see if they have the different styles yet. I was just planning on putting a straight JTM45 in it since it seems everyone hates the "tremelo" and never uses it. I'm just trying to figure out what components I need to make the sweetest-sounding Bluesbreaker I can get.

So far, my "Beano Recipe" looks like this:
- Handwired JTM45 chassis, Sozos, KT66's (popular opinion says to bias to around 40mA.)
- Heyboer Transformers
- White Mojo cabinet
- Open-Back
- Alnico speakers. Possibly Weber Silver Bells, or maybe a mix.

Nothing is written in stone though. I'm very open to suggestions!

BTW, your amp looks gorgeous.

Thanks,
Brad

the tremolo circuit with the germanium oc44 transistor contributes to the bluesbreaker soudn

Roe · Post by **Roe** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:42 am

the scumnico seems really nice, but it is not a clone of the old celestion alnico . it has "Alnico magnet (40 oz) with a Neodymium magnet tip to improve efficiency, bass response, and touch sensitivity". To me, this sounds like a good idea. but it isn't a clone

Post by **Scumback Speakers** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:27 am

shakti wrote:While we have Jim from Soutbay here - any plans to make an alnic with a 1777 replica cone?

It's hard to tell if the Bluesbreaker speaker is the 1777 cone or the 102 003, maybe you would know when Celestion introduced the 102 003 cone?

Nope, since Celestion is still doing that type speaker model, I'd just suggest you buy an Alnico Blue. As near as I can determine, mid to late 65 is when the 102 003 cone was introduced.

Post by **Scumback Speakers** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:30 am

Roe wrote:the scumnico seems really nice, but it is not a clone of the old celestion alnico . it has "Alnico magnet (40 oz) with a Neodymium magnet tip to improve efficiency, bass response, and touch sensitivity". To me, this sounds like a good idea. but it isn't a clone

You're right, sir. The Scumnico has quite a bit more bottom, and a tiny bit less high end than an Alnico Blue. It's more like the old silver, but with more bass response. I always liked the silver alnico better than the blue tonally, anyway.

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:09 am

I take it by blue you mean the 1777 cone and by silver you mean the 102 003 cone, right? Or are there any other differences between what you call silver and blue alnicos? FWIW; the silver alnicos in my '65 AC30 have the 1777 cone.

Post by **Scumback Speakers** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:49 am

shakti wrote:I take it by blue you mean the 1777 cone and by silver you mean the 102 003 cone, right? Or are there any other differences between what you call silver and blue alnicos? FWIW; the silver alnicos in my '65 AC30 have the 1777 cone.

Very early on the Silver Alnico did have the 1777 cone, as did the Alnico Blue. The Silver changed over to the 102 003 cone after it came out, I'm not sure if the Blue did or not (Jeff West or Alex Ortner might know).

The 1777 cone is louder, had more treble, less bass, and it is harsher in the treble frequencies than the 102 003 cone model. Alnicos are already bright, so putting a cone with more treble isn't needed.

My target for the Scumnico was a higher power handling Silver tone, with more bass, and a tiny bit less treble than the Silver. That's what the Scumnico sounds like. The 15 & 30 watt models are insanely good sounding with great response to volume and pick attack, right out of the box. The 65 watt models I haven't hooked up to a bigger amp yet, and although they sound very good, too, I haven't tried them with a 35-50 watt amp yet to see how they respond, although my guess is that the 65 watt model will need a 40-50 hour break in time before it sounds it's best, whereas the 15 & 30 watt models are pretty dynamic right out of the box.

I need to do some more testing on them, something I'll get to later this week if time permits.

908ssp · Post by **908ssp** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:38 am

When I got my BB back from the conversion it still had a set of Celestion Blues in it. I played it for about 3 hours that way because I didn't have time that evening to change them. They sounded pretty good but they did have a bit of hissiness on the very top end and the bass had the usual looseness flabbiness. The next day I changed to the Silvers with the 003 cones and there was an immediately noticeable difference. The hissiness was gone replaced with smooth warm tone the bass was much stiffer less flabby. I played the Beano album and messed with the amp and feel I could get those tone as well could be expected. When I listen to the Beano album I don't hear Blues with 1777 cones. I have never heard Silvers with a 1777 cones they might be different. I like the 003 cones they have a warm woody bluesy mid range. I don't play very loud I play everything through my Richter attenuator and it is by far the most transparent I have tried. So at reasonable SPLs the Silvers sound great. I'll be trying the Scumalnicos soon I hope and I still use Blues for my AC30 and Rocket plus all the Tone Tubbys I use should make for an interesting evaluation.

shakti · Post by **shakti** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:33 pm

Thanks to all for their input!

Just to clarify it, I think the story is something like this:

There's a speaker called the Celestion G12, made with an alnico magnet. Up until '64 or so, they had blue baskets (at least the ones used in AC30s) and 1777 cone. Then in '64 or '65 they changed the basket colour to silver, but everything else stayed the same.

Then, in late '65, they changed the cone to 102 003.

There were other very minor changes, such as how the terminals attached to the basket, and whether it had screws visible at the back or not, but nothing to do with the construction of the tone-shaping elements of the speakers.

If this is the case, then the 102 003 cone may in fact be the right type for the Bluesbreaker tone!? The Beano album was recorded in April(?) 1966, and Clapton definitely acquired his style II BB combo after he returned from Greece during Christmas 1965.

When I tried my JTM45 with the silver alnicos/1777 cone in my AC30, I thought the response was very Beano-like, but maybe a little strident in the treble. I wouldn't exactly say it was lacking in bass, though. I put it down to the differences in cabinet size and construction between an AC30 and BB, plus the possibility that the BB had two 16 ohm speakers in parallell, while the AC30 had two 8 ohm in series. With what you guys say, it sounds like the 102 003 alnico speaker might be the ticket!

Brad737 · Post by **Brad737** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 1:31 pm

Hmmm...I'm trying to read up on the different speakers out there, but there isn't a whole lot of detail on some of the websites. From what I'm able to gather, it looks like the Scumnico and the Weber Blue Dogs are different takes on the Vox Silver Alnicos? The Weber Silver Bells are said to be a classic Marshall tone, so I'm guessing Celestion alnicos? The Webers are $54 cheaper each, so unless I can find some soundclips that show the Scumnicos are unequivocally better, I'll go with the Webers. At this point, I'm still leaning towards one Blue Dog and one Silver Bell. Ideas?

Thanks,
Brad

908ssp · Post by **908ssp** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:08 pm

I tried both Weber's the Blue Dog and the Silver bell. They weren't bad but they didn't compare well with my Blues, TT or Vintage 003 Silver bell. They were dull and flat sounding they had neither the chime of the Blue nor the warmth and smoothness of the TT. I kinda wish I still had them just for the sake of comparison. I hung on to them for a long time but I never used them much, there always seemed to be better cab to plug into for my amp at the moment. This whole thing is very much like ice cream sometimes the taste is so good you're willing to pay a little more sometimes you're so hungry you can afford to do with less taste.

Roe · Post by **Roe** » Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:50 pm

which cone does the silver bell have?

BTW I've tried celestions 25w silver alnicos from the 40th anniv stack. sounds pretty simuliar to my undoped 30w alnico silver bell. but I didn't get the chance to a/b test them

I've tried my jtm45 with various speakers and cabs. I've got pretty close with the mojo bb ext cab with one 15 RI blue and one 30w silver bell.

a good lp also help - i recommend the ls320.