Metropoulos Forum

I am too ,very surprised about the reissues,

They sound good!



Louis

Do we have a definitive answer that the GB reissues are the current run, Chinese made speakes? In other words, if one were to buy a new "greenback" now from Celestion, this is the speaker?

Or are they the reissues from the '90s with the 6402 cones?

The reissue's seemed brighter to me or something. Not quite right. I never considered anything other than a 25 watter is a 25 watter and thats what EVH, Scorpions, Michael Schenker, etc, etc use. I got a new 4/12 Marshall slant in '90. It had the reissue 25 watters in it. It blew away the other speakers in the other cabs there (I believe I tried vintage 30's, 75's, EV's loaded in the 'compact' looking Mesa Boogie's of the day,etc). Loved that cab, but sold it mid 90's . Jump ahead 10 yrs and through Ralle and then Rockstah I figured out that the 6402 coned 25 watters they both used were what were in my cab, and thier clips confirmed what I liked,tonewise, about my old cab. Throw in efrasers awesome sounding clips (6402's) and it becomes pretty obvious that the first English reissue 25 watters (6402 cones) are pretty darn good. I snagged a beat up mid '80's Marshall slant that is loaded with them. That cab originally had the 65 watters in it.

I'm going to say something not many want to hear, so get ready.

George did another test clip with the ASW speakers vs the 67 G12M's he had in his cab a month or so back. He was thrilled with how they sounded, even wrote me about it. I thought they sounded a whole bunch better in that clip.

But that sure didn't seem to translate here in this recording, based on the comments I've read, and what I heard in the clip (not criticizing ASW, Celestion, George, Rick, Metro members, etc...read on).

My feeling is that something went wrong with the recording. Sorry, George! I love you, buddy, but this one didn't come off like it should.

I say that because I've heard the ASW Crossroads in person, and they just don't sound like they do in this clip. IMO, something is off...I'm not going to venture to say what, since I wasn't there.

But it's definitely off because the tone I hear in the ASW Crossroads is way off from the ones I've heard in person.

And if they're off, I'm afraid that casts doubt on the rest of the recording as well.

I'm sure many will disagree, but frankly I think I'm right. Why? Well, if I did think the recording was right, would I be sticking up for ASW speakers?

Probably not.

I'll go put my flame suit on now, I'm sure I'll need it!

Thanks George, I'm getting the long awaited G12m Heritage speakers.

BTW would I have a problem with using 15 ohms speakers ? and set at 16 ohms on the amp? Naive question .

I hear you Jim, but can assure you there was nothing "wrong" in the recording process. I've struggled with why they didn't translate as well myself. My thought is that different mic position would have suited them better. Granted, the ASW are subdued in the highs vs every other speaker in the shootout, but in person they are far more appealing than the clips would lead you to believe.

I'll offer the other clip you mentioned as evidence:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR7Rn9erHew[/youtube]

Ironically, in that clip many people preferred the ASW and/or mistook them to be the vintage speakers. I regret that I may have unintentionally done a disservice to ASW with these clips. That definitely was not my intention. If anything, I am excited to spread the word about how great they sound. Good, bad or otherwise I was committed to the test as precise and apples to apples, so I don't regret sticking to it. I guess you can take away from this that even this micing scheme isn't ideal for all speakers.

george

George, no offense intended to you or your setup, I hope you didn't take any. But what I heard in your clip led me to believe that each speaker has it's "sweet spot" for micing, and it's likely that one mic placement probably doesn't do justice to all of the speakers evenly.

With the recent 535 clip barrage I've got going to my site soon, I found this out firsthand as well.

Not at all Jim. Like I said, I struggled with this too.

I really think context is playing with our heads here, all of the other speakers are clearly brighter. Relative volume also plays a role in our perception, so I'll throw this out there:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64682773/M%20s ... justed.wav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the '67 first, then the ASW, also repeated same order. But, I adjusted the RMS level of the Crossroads clips to match the '67s. All I have done is raise the level by 1db. See if that changes anything.

george

Scumback Speakers wrote:George, no offense intended to you or your setup, I hope you didn't take any. But what I heard in your clip led me to believe that each speaker has it's "sweet spot" for micing, and it's likely that one mic placement probably doesn't do justice to all of the speakers evenly.

With the recent 535 clip barrage I've got going to my site soon, I found this out firsthand as well.

I'm not sure what is being said here ? I see one mic in the vid-pic ? Isn't that even-steven ?
Wouldn't they sound even different with both cabs on the floor, then. Is it in this concept in which you're saying this?
Consistency with one mic up close up; than the pressure zones of different sized rooms ?

Is there a chance that one of the ASW speakers was wired out of phase? I would have thought you would notice first-hand, but OTOH that nasally quality is something that may result from a speaker being out of phase.

jim is beating about the bush here but i think he is just rattled because his scumback speakers didnt come out on top.

i for one am glad of shootout videos like these. done by an honest third party and not made by scumback speakers, celestion, or anyone other speaker company featured in it. lets face it, their main agenda would be to make their own speakers sound best in any comparison clips or videos.

these videos will always come out differently depending on the setup and mic position etc, so many variables. i dont own any ASW or scumbacks, but the pre-rola sounds very familiar to my ears, and in my opinion this recording is a decent representation of it.

jimi james: What I meant was that not every speaker has it's sweet spot for micing in the exact same place. And with mics four feet away the margin for error is much smaller than if you close mic next to the grill cloth.

You could move a mic 1/2" and get a different tone from a speaker. When James Lugo did his pickup shootout years ago, he was careful to test recordings in several positions with the mic, and choose the best one from multiple angles. Then he marked (taped the cloth) the cab and made note of the angle of the mic as well. This is what I did 8 years ago in my recordings, and I learned this same lesson from Andy Zuckerman who did the recordings.

I truly don't think the ASW speakers got recorded right for sure, which is why I brought this up. I've heard them in person and they don't sound like they do in this clip. Hence, due to this being not right for the ASW, it raises the question of if the mic position was the best for all of the speakers.

Maybe I misunderstood what George's aim was here, but I thought this was to capture how each quad of speakers sounded 'IN THE ROOM' in that cab with that amp?
ALL speakers have their sweet spot and mike type when getting the best to tape, but using a quality ribbon mike was the nearest and fairest I'd say without going o.t.t. with a full studio set up? Maybe shootouts aren't the best way the evaluate a speaker?

VelvetGeorge wrote:Not at all Jim. Like I said, I struggled with this too.

I really think context is playing with our heads here, all of the other speakers are clearly brighter. Relative volume also plays a role in our perception, so I'll throw this out there:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64682773/M%20s ... justed.wav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the '67 first, then the ASW, also repeated same order. But, I adjusted the RMS level of the Crossroads clips to match the '67s. All I have done is raise the level by 1db. See if that changes anything.

george

I have to admit the ASW's sound much better in this short clip.