Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
I don't care if it's true or not. My amp sounds amazing like that, and that's all I care about.
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
But others do.Brad737 wrote:I don't care if it's true or not.
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
OK then Ted, you're clearly the expert. Please enlighten us.
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
Go back four posts.
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
All you said was use a guitar with PAFs, into Channel 1, and alnicos into an open-back cabinet. Why are you being so cryptic? If you don't like the info that's out there, why don't you tell us how you've set everything up? My setup sounds just like the Mayall album.
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
Recap:
It's tough to claim that anything is impossible, but certain things are highly unlikely. If original series I amp owners reported their amps as being miswired for the 8-ohm load and I've somehow forgotten(?), then do refresh my memory. Otherwise, it's just grasping at straws, and unnecessarily so.
Brad737 wrote:I've read on 2 or 3 websites that the original Bluesbreaker combos had two 16-ohm speakers wired in parallel for an 8-ohmm load. But instead of setting the amp at 8, running it at 16.
I flagged this claim mostly because I remember musing about this myself in online discussions some 10-12 years ago, when speculation abounded. I thought this had been laid to rest along with the Rangemaster theory, so I'm surprised to see it mentioned. Since that time, the Beano sound has been duplicated by many, myself included. No mismatch or anything else out of the ordinary was required, only the complete picture, which few have the wherewithal to do. But that is old news at this point.Ted B wrote: Folks said the same thing about a Rangemaster, which as it turns out, never existed.
There is no reason why the amp would have been set that way, certainly not by Ken Bran, nor by Clapton. In fact, there's a good possibility that amp didn't have an external impedance selector at all.
It's tough to claim that anything is impossible, but certain things are highly unlikely. If original series I amp owners reported their amps as being miswired for the 8-ohm load and I've somehow forgotten(?), then do refresh my memory. Otherwise, it's just grasping at straws, and unnecessarily so.
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
Ted has it down cold. For all the hooplah about Bluesbreaker tone over the years, it really is very, very simple once you get the right ingredients.
All it is, is a '66 era JTM45 amp into two alnico Celestions in an open-back 2x12. No mismatch, negative feedback at 16 ohms, guitar straight in. Dead simple - there it is in leaps and bounds.
As Ted mentions, there was some talk of mismatch a few years ago, and suddenly (like the Rangemaster before it) that became "the hidden ingredient". Only problem was: the mismatch only possibly happened with the early non-selector RS Deluxe OT versions, which were certainly replaced with the Drake 784-139 by the time Clapton's amp was built. There is no reason for the amp and speakers to have been mismatched after that, since the amp then had an impedance selector. Likewise, as Ted has correctly pointed out, the early block logo amps with the RS Deluxe OT had the negative feedback attached directly to the speaker jacks (since there was no impedance switch to wire it to), which means that if the amp was running into an 8 ohm load (two 16 ohm speakers in parallell), it would have less NFB than a typical JTM45. However, that too is a moot point with a later JTM45 with a Drake 784-103, because the NFB was then wired to the 16 ohm tap, regardless of speaker load.
All it is, is a '66 era JTM45 amp into two alnico Celestions in an open-back 2x12. No mismatch, negative feedback at 16 ohms, guitar straight in. Dead simple - there it is in leaps and bounds.
As Ted mentions, there was some talk of mismatch a few years ago, and suddenly (like the Rangemaster before it) that became "the hidden ingredient". Only problem was: the mismatch only possibly happened with the early non-selector RS Deluxe OT versions, which were certainly replaced with the Drake 784-139 by the time Clapton's amp was built. There is no reason for the amp and speakers to have been mismatched after that, since the amp then had an impedance selector. Likewise, as Ted has correctly pointed out, the early block logo amps with the RS Deluxe OT had the negative feedback attached directly to the speaker jacks (since there was no impedance switch to wire it to), which means that if the amp was running into an 8 ohm load (two 16 ohm speakers in parallell), it would have less NFB than a typical JTM45. However, that too is a moot point with a later JTM45 with a Drake 784-103, because the NFB was then wired to the 16 ohm tap, regardless of speaker load.
JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
We both know that no-one really knows what the set up was exactly due to the transition period for cabs/speakers and wiring odditiesTed B wrote:What mismatch would that be and according to whom?neikeel wrote: I have a project that will be quite similar to use an original RS OT to do the full Beano mismatch which will be quite interesting...
I propose to wire my old RS Deluxe OT up for 8k primary, secondary for 16ohms with NFB on speaker jack and wiring the two 16ohms speakers in parallel for 8ohms. With virtually new KT66s this should yield in the region of 40w (as opposed to 30w all matched) and hopefully that raw Beano tone. I have sufficient period speakers to swap in and out but I hope the 'golds' will nail it, although I suspect that in my case the tone restriction will be my playing
Neil
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
That will be interesting for sure, but I still say you have the wrong OT...
JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
Well I do have a 'normal -103 type' 45 as well which is what I have been using. Doesd not quite nail it IMO (my playing?). My 18watter on the trem channel, tone on 10, volume on 6-8 with G12Ms gets closer for me...........................shakti wrote:That will be interesting for sure, but I still say you have the wrong OT...
Neil
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
Speakers?
Guitar?
Pickup?
B+?
Guitar?
Pickup?
B+?
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
Speakers choice: 2x12 Alnico Golds/2x12 G12M20/4x12 G12M20 pinstripe A/4x12 G12H25 pinstripe B/G12M25 basketweave A/G12H30 basketweave BTed B wrote:Speakers?
Guitar?
Pickup?
B+?
Guitars choice: MartynBooth sig (SD Jazz, neck, SD Screamin' Demon bridge), MB Special (Bareknuckles P90s), Gibson ES-335 (57 Classics) and Tokai LoveRock (Bareknuckles Mule neck, Gibson BB3 bridge)
on the Metro 45 is 410v with a Mullard GZ34, GEC KT66 (biased at 42mA), Mullard ECC83 x3 in preamp.
Standard cap arrangement, mustards and RS micas 100pF on pot.
I can get pretty close to the tone with Bass = 2 everything else on 7-8 (excluding non-used Ch 2 = 4) but quite loud with the Golds and the Love Rock.
Neil
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
The Tokai is going to be the closest, but there are pickups better for the job than that BB3. I just swapped the BB2&3 for a set of Stephens Design VL2 in my Gibson Historic R0. The VL2s blow the BBs away where getting 'that sound' is concerned. Also, the guitar must have 500+k volume and tone pots to get the correct sound and full output from any PAF type pickup. Many modern 500k pots only register around 450k, so be advised. The correct bridge material (zinc), tailpiece mass (must be aluminum), and both the material and length of bridge and tailpiece studs also make a difference. These differences go a long way toward separating the sound of a vintage Les Paul Standard from copies. The sum of these details makes a difference. Believe it.
On the speakers, an open back cab is important. The Celestion Golds sound very good, not quite like the old alnico G12s, but closer than any of the greenbacks, old or new.
410V of B+ is a bit low. My '65 JTM45 runs about 445V.
The early Drake -103 Series 1 combos were not fitted with an external impedance selector, and the NFB was wired to the speaker jack (8-ohms).
The devil really is in the details here.
On the speakers, an open back cab is important. The Celestion Golds sound very good, not quite like the old alnico G12s, but closer than any of the greenbacks, old or new.
410V of B+ is a bit low. My '65 JTM45 runs about 445V.
The early Drake -103 Series 1 combos were not fitted with an external impedance selector, and the NFB was wired to the speaker jack (8-ohms).
The devil really is in the details here.
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
Yes, I can believe it, those details are important (in amps too). Funny, but whenever I intend to play Beano tones I seem to lapse into later Clapton (Cream era) style with my set up
My Tokai does not have the alloy tailpiece (that seems to have ended up on my sons LP Custom ) and not sure about the tail studs. The pots are these:http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/sho ... cts_id=201 and the caps are these:http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/sho ... cts_id=198. I was pretty impressed with results of the pot/cap change and fully recommend anyone with a Les Paul to do it. Having said that I really like the pups in the Tokai as it is and will stick with them for the moment (the Beano tone is great but like the EVH tone it is not something I constantly strive for 100%). After all my natural style is something akin to J P which is not something I am hugely proud of but I imagine that it is just the product of listening to too much Led Zep during my formative years and accepting that I make mistakes. I also believe it is the song that is important (all my playing out nowadays is in a covers party/function band playing pop/funk/disco/rockabilly and indie pop/rock ). Sorry for the ramble..............
My Tokai does not have the alloy tailpiece (that seems to have ended up on my sons LP Custom ) and not sure about the tail studs. The pots are these:http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/sho ... cts_id=201 and the caps are these:http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/sho ... cts_id=198. I was pretty impressed with results of the pot/cap change and fully recommend anyone with a Les Paul to do it. Having said that I really like the pups in the Tokai as it is and will stick with them for the moment (the Beano tone is great but like the EVH tone it is not something I constantly strive for 100%). After all my natural style is something akin to J P which is not something I am hugely proud of but I imagine that it is just the product of listening to too much Led Zep during my formative years and accepting that I make mistakes. I also believe it is the song that is important (all my playing out nowadays is in a covers party/function band playing pop/funk/disco/rockabilly and indie pop/rock ). Sorry for the ramble..............
Neil
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Re: Beano Tone with a JTM45 Head?
Ted,Ted B wrote:...but there are pickups better for the job than that BB3. I just swapped the BB2&3 for a set of Stephens Design VL2 in my Gibson Historic R0. The VL2s blow the BBs away where getting 'that sound' is concerned...
The linked YouTube from around a year ago is really impressive--don't know if those are the Stephens Design VL2's or not. Now that some time has passed, how are you feeling about the VL2's? I recently rekindled my 'Beano interest', as well as getting back my Les Paul Standard Heritage-80 from my brother who has had it for 20 years (which helped). But, as reluctant as I am to put a soldering iron to a somewhat historic guitar, the pickups aren't quite the flavor I want. Advice?