Plexified reveals Eds Plexi , again for a sticky

[plexified]

oh, oH,OH , OHHH, RIP some lip ,your a fish on now . YES , finally we have interest . The output transformer has charateristics that create the brown sound. The transformer science is vast and I tried to introduce it many times but its just very hard to comprehend . So I will do my best to make it accessible . The first thing is UL , or Underwriting Laboratory that regulates and approves designs and it gets harder to comply . Back then this 12 series transformer was wound with enamel couted copper in a winding that was rather small . Their were a bunch of tap options and that was cool and the core material was specific. This means regarding grain orientated steel and laminate thickness . Its all important here . So when this item was employed to the 1959 circuit , coming from tube rectification circuits and now solid state , it was designed to be a character . This means the absence of tube rectification leans on the solid state rectification circuit and it can be harsh. Here they forsaw this and under rated the power trans . It had a character alright. When you play on 10 this thing has a natural sag , like a tube recto but not as pronounced. Its the warm butter feeling you get from well eating melting butter. How else do you get that sag ?
Yeah , you can turn down the line voltage . But these guys ( 67,68 ) were meant for a strong 110 line voltage. And those that do not comply dose the thing with 118v to 130v line voltage from the power companies . So you need a variac to dial it down . Not necessarily for anything else than keeping the old thing alive.
Now , as the circuit sags ( at times some 50+ volts) you get the buttery spongey tone that is also affecting the pre amp. Its synergy. The specs we all talk about are valid and the pick ups and stuff. BUT , I offer this . My own 12 series has been modded and restored and original . I heard it in all three forms and personally , the character has always been their , the alterations were actually subtle , the core would always stand. This means the Power and the OT are equals to the real tone .
Now I fast forward this Ed wound up with a VHII tone that had a large output transformer combined to a small power trans . This is a very mutated bitch , but with stock parts . Even rotated the OTX as we spoke of and the choke was changed within stock specs . So This is on the board , but the speakers are a constant and the ones he used are of the greatest. That's another story and paper . BUT. Nice to see some ears perk up . I have the amp and will gladly offer info and as I dig out my gear , record some offerings . I however am playing catch up on the software doing so . So lean back on me with some ideas for recording . I have the gear , regarding mic , cab , amps , and effects . Its computer software and uploading that I could learn more from . What is the best rip , grip and clip ? This way I can rip and clip easy to get you tones and answers . I still have to get a pick up to Shannon and some things to Jimi James so I am behind . But clips , clips are fun. BTW , I have a whole commentary on that so , awangotango has the floor , check his point of view out. Plexidust

[JimiJames]

"...Yeah , you can turn down the line voltage . But these guys ( 67,68 ) were meant for a strong 110 line voltage. And those that do not comply dose the thing with 118v to 130v line voltage from the power companies . So you need a variac to dial it down . Not necessarily for anything else than keeping the old thing alive..."

Would that be a (power) Voltage Regulator?

~Plex, my Fender BFSR had been converted to a SS recto when I got it. I guess that's more common than I thought.
It holds together, tighter at higher volumes where I like to play. The recto tube is still in place.
Q?
Does a variac fluctuate up down with wall voltage ? I would imagine so, but I dunno' ?
Or, do you need the VR to control the variac allowing for steady voltage.

I would imagine when Ed mentioned his personal sweet spot that it was more likely a controlled environment. Also applies to others sharing theirs. - but it is not my environment.
My environment melts Plexi's with 135v. yup more like voltage flatulence I need a quality VR. So I hear you loud & clear on the line voltage for these monstrous beauty's. This circuit's gotta' purr and it has something to do with the inherent designed in voltage as I find out the hard way.

[dirtycooter]

I get fluctuations from 118-124 lately. Have seen it as low as 112. Thats a swing of 12-13 Volts.
If you wall says 120 and the variac output says 90, then the wall jumps up to 130 your variac is gonna be movin up to 100. +10 and +10. Its just a static one step reducer really of whatever it is fed.
A power regulator is +/- 5 volts stable in their specs and would keep the swing within a 10 Volt variance.
Its does NOT just deliver a solid 120 all the time. It will move much the same way as regular line does. But the window is centered around 120 I believe. So it can be anywhere from 115-125. Thats as good as the regulator is gonna do and just keep it inside those numbers 115-125.
The other thing that plays a factor-at night time there is less stuff goin on so there are less swings. Daytime people are up and awake turning things off and on-maybe factories only run during the day-so during the day you can get weird wild anything happening.
Heat-a week of 100dgr plus temps you will notice after a day or two of that line voltage will get sagged down. Transformers and carriers get hotter and start kinda building resistance in the flow. Your typical brownout conditiin.
So you can spend big $$$ on a regulator if you want but unless your swings are greater than 10v total there ptobably won't be much benefit if its centered around 120. I think 135 it would be adviseable to invest. Thats pretty high.
Out of typical range really. It may even cause the regulator to trip out of range shutdown. There is a point the regukator will say f u and cannot keep it between 115-125 and it will say seeya.
Where I live its pretty centered around 118-120 still. And probably just having a cheap power conditioner with the digital readout can show you actual line voltage as I have in my rack. Use that as reference. I always look at the line voltage meter before turnin on the rig. When using the variac I have output sockets shut off but plug my furman into the variac out put and kinda see where it shiws 90 on the furman and what the meter in the variac says. They never match up. 90 on the furman is like 85 on the variac meter. This gives me a better idea where I probably am. The closer my actual line is to 120 though the furman starts matching up to the variacs meter closer and more in spec.
A second one is nice to have split off from you variacs actual output to get a better accurate idea of exactly what the voltage really is coming out of your variac. The dial numbers and meters on variacs do not seem to be so accurate and I don't think they balance themselves against input fluctuation. The main line will move up and down as well as the variaced level correspondingly on both meters.

[fhn_lopes]

I've been playing with guy who have both jvc heads and 5150 heads, EVH peavy heads... allthough they might have had a tad more gain than me, they never came up the the level of tone I did... When I play in the band, the sustain is insain... feedback and harmonics... and yet it's fairly clean in a way... But the raw power is ABSOLOUTLY amazing... It might not be louder than the others but the tone carries through in a way that's astonishing...

Don't know why, don't know what it is and what causes that, but my amp has it in spades. First time I gigged it through my 4x12 with rola celestions and scumbacks I went like WTF!! The amp was dimed, even though every single aspect of the tone was under FULL control. If I wanted feedback, there it was, if I wanted to make it stop, easy. No squeals, no flubb lows (actually pretty tight BTW), no microphonics, loads and loads of punch and raw power, endless sustain... The other guitar and the bass/drums were into the PA and I wasn't... Guess who came out cutting the mix like a sharp katana?? Me and the sound tech that were mixing the PA that day were shocked how the amp could cut through that way and still be heard at the end of the place.

BTW, my amp is a 50 watter, EL34s, Original 1976 Iron and a Metro 71 board. Tubes are NOS RFTs and Siemens. I play a les paul with 9k Bare Kunklcles VHII and I can get a tone VERY gainy and heavy, old school metal to the bone. Too tight for early VH though, think maybe the variac can help with that "thump' in the low end, but haven't tried it yet.

[mightymike]

I've been playing with guy who have both jvc heads and 5150 heads, EVH peavy heads... allthough they might have had a tad more gain than me, they never came up the the level of tone I did... When I play in the band, the sustain is insain... feedback and harmonics... and yet it's fairly clean in a way... But the raw power is ABSOLOUTLY amazing... It might not be louder than the others but the tone carries through in a way that's astonishing...

Don't know why, don't know what it is and what causes that, but my amp has it in spades. First time I gigged it through my 4x12 with rola celestions and scumbacks I went like WTF!! The amp was dimed, even though every single aspect of the tone was under FULL control. If I wanted feedback, there it was, if I wanted to make it stop, easy. No squeals, no flubb lows (actually pretty tight BTW), no microphonics, loads and loads of punch and raw power, endless sustain... The other guitar and the bass/drums were into the PA and I wasn't... Guess who came out cutting the mix like a sharp katana?? Me and the sound tech that were mixing the PA that day were shocked how the amp could cut through that way and still be heard at the end of the place.

BTW, my amp is a 50 watter, EL34s, Original 1976 Iron and a Metro 71 board. Tubes are NOS RFTs and Siemens. I play a les paul with 9k Bare Kunklcles VHII and I can get a tone VERY gainy and heavy, old school metal to the bone. Too tight for early VH though, think maybe the variac can help with that "thump' in the low end, but haven't tried it yet.

I have 7amps. Of them all my 10000 (done up like the M e rr en description of EVH'S AMP) pushes through the mix better than them all even though it has less gain stages than the Jose inspired builds. It's my favortite by far.

I'm getting a lot out of each stage, but that 2" OT is like another gain stage in itself. . So even though some of the other amps may have more gain stages, when cranked in a band situation that 10000 is heard over them, and sounds just as aggressive with less. This gives a more pure mean sound.

I like Chris's iron best but even George's Heyboer 2" has that aggression. To me putting a 2" Drake OT in your amp is like going from a 8k paf pickup to a JB. If you've done this, you know there is a huge jump in aggression.

So sometimes less (gain stages) is more.

[dirtycooter]

What color was her underwear?

[fhn_lopes]

All I know is that my amp is damn heavy for a 50 watter and being original iron, maybe it is the original Drakes there.... not sure though, never looked into that... will do soon and let you know.

[jnew]

Ok, cool thread going here. I'm pretty sure David meant 90 degrees rotation on that larger Opt trans. 45 degrees would just look plain weird and wrong. My next build, which I hope to be getting back to now that the moving has settled down, will have a 2". I haven't decided whether or not to rotate it but if that was how Ed's was, I'm doing it. Still a bit lost on the NFB thing. I use 100K on the 8 ohm tap. So I'm guessing that's on the positive terminal? Will have to re-read some of these post's.

[jnew]

It's 3am and I'm spent and confused but, I'm understanding that Ed's stock 68 plexi was using a stock 2" Opt trans from a 69/onward, and was rotated 90 degrees. So not really stock 68 spec as stock 68's had a 1.5" Opt trans. Same goes for the choke issue. Where is positive and negative on the NFB circuit?

[dirtycooter]

I am watchin this as well.
But at what time frame was it replaced?
Before or after what records?
We know it was snaggled around a few times-once was fryette in there jerkin a load.
So kinda is relevant the time frame in which it was molested
This leaves me confused along with other accounts of van wheeldong gettin his dick beaters in it.

[fivecoyote]

DC I thought someone established that VW didn't really have the grail amp?

[plexified]

ok , now this thread has some heat . Shame down on you fools that questioned the goods . OK , your forgiven. NOW , we get into the nuts and bolts and fu*&EIEOPOPW<<....ing stuff we are about . Now first , I get a vibe of a question regarding the power transformer . Here today we are going to fu...ing . tell you whats up . How does that make you feel . OK , Let me stop the pomp and circumstance , boom . done . You need about 350 volts on your plates in your output compliment . Yeah , that shit sags and is cool , but you need to tailor it to your sound . Fu%^, that rating , work within a range or plus or minus fifty percent !Get it?

[plexified]

Look , I get stupid sometimes the way I write , I know it but lets cut to the chase here . The Power transformer being small in this application is what gives you a certain sag . With the stock xformer its got a certain restriction just like if you had a tube rectifier causing the same event . When you bang on a chord hard like Ed always does it has latency . That latency pulls down the voltage and causes the spongy gooey warmth on the bottom end . Its a bigger frequency wave . Some of these waves are bigger than your house . They pronounce the effect , the high end is not so succeptible. The voltage can be tuned down with the variac , yes , but if you listened to what I said about the 12 series and my experience it is the reason we have the brown sound . I had the same amp modded beyond belief and stock and the same characteristics still remained , why ? I told you all its the power transformer as the limiting factor . It stops supplying the current to deliver massive spikes of big waves of the bottom end . Its as simple as I can explain it . Put a light bulb in the electrical chain to limit the current and you can SEE it . It drags down the voltage reserve to a point where its deficient . That is what gives the magic plexi its bottom end purr or signature growl . If it had a no holds barred approach like an ali panel with its massive iron you would hear massive volume and no sag whatsoever. Get it ? YES the output has flavor , and flavor it is , but its got more volts on the plates and exhibits less sag and if we consider stock 12 series chassis to a chassis that now has a 69 unit it supplies more volts to the plates in both the pre amp AND power amp collectively and gives you more UMPH . Crisper nuances and BALLS on the top . Its driving the EL 34 compliment to the soft side and to reel it in you run 6550's or 6Ca7's from Sylvania at the time . It reels in the detail gives a bit more high end and now you have VHII. Its in the pics in the studio . He still had the small power transformer all the time . Get it ?
I ran the 12 stock with 20's in a single cab and its magic . BUT , count your blessings until it melts the speakers and then your amp . A variac is used to take an amp that wants 110 volts and gives it that . Line voltage varies up to and over 130 volts from the wall ! It will fry your amp . Do you realize how much of an animal Al is playing drums . He is so loud , in fact he is as loud as possible . Ed never could turn down much with this blatant issue . If he turned down , it was to keep his own amp from frying from the wall current.
Ed played a Les Paul Junior with P-90's . So much so that Zloz has the original pics of the VHI album cover of him holding it . An out take ! That thing was humming in the lights and hard to keep in tune with Eds strong technique , yet he got the tone . And we argue all day long about the Frankie. Stop it . A Les Paul Junior with P 90 pick ups with a bone stock Plexi was the tone here . The small outpiut transformer was the key to this thing . Yes a 20 watt celestion cabinet was probably the nirvana mode , but it would smoke . He lost output transformers doing this . So whats next ? Jose . He told him you need the larger more available 69 output transformer and 30 watt speakers . He then variaced it down to 90 from a logical 110. Getting away from a 130 wall voltage , making his amp live and the 30's lived keeping the rig alive . Get it ?
That's when the variac made sense . The larger output transformer made like 560 volts as opposed to 440 volts on the output plates and when he eased it down it made a softer spongier sound . With the 69 output , less voltage on the pre amp now here is where it happened . My 12 series STOCK was very forgiving with mods and voltages and its tone was always in the wheelhouse . The 69 transformer changed things . Bolder , louder , pushing the output tubes harder . Hence you have the 8 ohm tap selection. Its mimicking the ohms of the former . Get it ? Hope you do , no man could paint it more clear . And yet I have been telling you this for seven years and nobody still gets it yet . Its why you can get sweet chords and volume , punch and purring bottom that has a spongy feel while your top end still stings and sustain has your cabinets dancing on the floor . I had a stock 69 Super Trem with German output tubes that screamed through two cabs that had THE sound . Its the same thing . That one extra tube pulled more current on the power trans and had just the right effect. Now lets talk about the choke .

[JimiJames]

"...Look ..."

I see.

"...Now lets talk about the choke .

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... 58#p111758

[jnew]

Look , I get stupid sometimes the way I write , I know it but lets cut to the chase here . The Power transformer being small in this application is what gives you a certain sag . With the stock xformer its got a certain restriction just like if you had a tube rectifier causing the same event . When you bang on a chord hard like Ed always does it has latency . That latency pulls down the voltage and causes the spongy gooey warmth on the bottom end . Its a bigger frequency wave . Some of these waves are bigger than your house . They pronounce the effect , the high end is not so succeptible. The voltage can be tuned down with the variac , yes , but if you listened to what I said about the 12 series and my experience it is the reason we have the brown sound . I had the same amp modded beyond belief and stock and the same characteristics still remained , why ? I told you all its the power transformer as the limiting factor . It stops supplying the current to deliver massive spikes of big waves of the bottom end . Its as simple as I can explain it . Put a light bulb in the electrical chain to limit the current and you can SEE it . It drags down the voltage reserve to a point where its deficient . That is what gives the magic plexi its bottom end purr or signature growl . If it had a no holds barred approach like an ali panel with its massive iron you would hear massive volume and no sag whatsoever. Get it ? YES the output has flavor , and flavor it is , but its got more volts on the plates and exhibits less sag and if we consider stock 12 series chassis to a chassis that now has a 69 unit it supplies more volts to the plates in both the pre amp AND power amp collectively and gives you more UMPH . Crisper nuances and BALLS on the top . Its driving the EL 34 compliment to the soft side and to reel it in you run 6550's or 6Ca7's from Sylvania at the time . It reels in the detail gives a bit more high end and now you have VHII. Its in the pics in the studio . He still had the small power transformer all the time . Get it ?
I ran the 12 stock with 20's in a single cab and its magic . BUT , count your blessings until it melts the speakers and then your amp . A variac is used to take an amp that wants 110 volts and gives it that . Line voltage varies up to and over 130 volts from the wall ! It will fry your amp . Do you realize how much of an animal Al is playing drums . He is so loud , in fact he is as loud as possible . Ed never could turn down much with this blatant issue . If he turned down , it was to keep his own amp from frying from the wall current.
Ed played a Les Paul Junior with P-90's . So much so that Zloz has the original pics of the VHI album cover of him holding it . An out take ! That thing was humming in the lights and hard to keep in tune with Eds strong technique , yet he got the tone . And we argue all day long about the Frankie. Stop it . A Les Paul Junior with P 90 pick ups with a bone stock Plexi was the tone here . The small outpiut transformer was the key to this thing . Yes a 20 watt celestion cabinet was probably the nirvana mode , but it would smoke . He lost output transformers doing this . So whats next ? Jose . He told him you need the larger more available 69 output transformer and 30 watt speakers . He then variaced it down to 90 from a logical 110. Getting away from a 130 wall voltage , making his amp live and the 30's lived keeping the rig alive . Get it ?
That's when the variac made sense . The larger output transformer made like 560 volts as opposed to 440 volts on the output plates and when he eased it down it made a softer spongier sound . With the 69 output , less voltage on the pre amp now here is where it happened . My 12 series STOCK was very forgiving with mods and voltages and its tone was always in the wheelhouse . The 69 transformer changed things . Bolder , louder , pushing the output tubes harder . Hence you have the 8 ohm tap selection. Its mimicking the ohms of the former . Get it ? Hope you do , no man could paint it more clear . And yet I have been telling you this for seven years and nobody still gets it yet . Its why you can get sweet chords and volume , punch and purring bottom that has a spongy feel while your top end still stings and sustain has your cabinets dancing on the floor . I had a stock 69 Super Trem with German output tubes that screamed through two cabs that had THE sound . Its the same thing . That one extra tube pulled more current on the power trans and had just the right effect. Now lets talk about the choke .

Great stuff David. And in fact, since my 50 watt was a JTM-45 re-issue at one time, I use a GZ-34 tube rectifier. And you know what? Of course you know what. I don't even need to say it.

The choke would be another good topic. Just switching the two connections on the choke can change the tone of the amp. Much like the effect of reversing polarity on the Pwr Trans. It's about how the winding capacitance changes under the two conditions and these capacitance changes affect how the highs behave which in turn shape the amp's vowel like tones. Well, maybe there's a better way to say all that but you get the point.