Metropoulos Forum

Your rabbit hole bound Dig. Endless paradox vortex. Cornucopia of endless opinions.


Not sure what the output level of the mic out line is but I would assume it would be a regular line out. (never assume).
Most likely you could run that into a second amp with effects. Most preferable an amp with an effects loop. Would give you decent sound and a place to start your verb quest.

I've gotten some great results lately by just running a signal tap directly from a speaker(dry) into a second amp(wet). This is the same as using a second speaker output from the amp as well. Since the level for the wet is much reduced for the album sound, you can just have a small amp for that. Im just using a modified Epiphone valve junior into a Celest V30 1/12 for the wet and a 4/12 for the dry. You dont need a 4/12. A single 12 will do.
With a digital plate reverb and some delay, its pretty tight. The trick is the mix of the dry and wet from 2 separate speaker sources. Amps with effects loops really can not accomplish that sound because of the conflicting texture of the sounds will muddy. They still come out of the same source speaker. IMO.

Welcome brother.....


Warning: don't feed "Dirtycooter" or "Leadguy".

Too funny!

But the example of eventide delay detuned at 100 ms fed into a crap Boss hall {they didn't have a bright plate }reverb is in the clip I had ILMM post up-listen for the slap strong reflection. Just swamp that delayed signal in a bright tailed reverb-just don't put it on the dry main sound and mudville stays away .

Listen in the right speaker alone on the right wet side with headphones on by itself and compare to the original right at the intro-pretty close approximation as I could get with the equipment at hand-its EQ'd as a bright kinda verb and I still wasn't bright enough but close as I could get I thought. It woulda been better had I brightened up the actual slap source itself on the wet delay side feeding the verb which is simple as addin more on the hi color from the palmer for the delay to be brighter. But recording is all new to me and I am in the learning stage for sure.

It just illustrates the "eventide delay theory on VH1" anyway. Whether or not they fed it to a plate or a live room is still unknown-but there was only one way to get that "pre-delay" back in that day no matter which verb type was used Either studio tape delay-early digital delay-or the cutting edge eventide 910 delay/pitch machine had to be used.

+1, Eventide Delay and Boss Digital RV5 on Plate setting is really doing it for me right now. Getting that sound at room volume is so great to hear.

Anyone have any experience with a Roland SRV-2000? I got a lead on one for $40, is that a fair price? Are these any good?

Good thread

I'm in the planning stages and need input.

i want to build a 12xxxx, run dry signal to 4x12 cab, run a line out to my tsl 601 for wet signal, run the eventide delay through the tsl's effects loop and use the internal marshall verb. think that will suffice?

i really wanted to reamp the 12xxxx with the tsl to get the output volume down. If i did that I'd need to run a 3rd amp for wet signal, correct?

cheers

vanhalen5150 wrote:Your rabbit hole bound Dig. Endless paradox vortex. Cornucopia of endless opinions.


Not sure what the output level of the mic out line is but I would assume it would be a regular line out. (never assume).
Most likely you could run that into a second amp with effects. Most preferable an amp with an effects loop. Would give you decent sound and a place to start your verb quest.

I've gotten some great results lately by just running a signal tap directly from a speaker(dry) into a second amp(wet). This is the same as using a second speaker output from the amp as well. Since the level for the wet is much reduced for the album sound, you can just have a small amp for that. Im just using a modified Epiphone valve junior into a Celest V30 1/12 for the wet and a 4/12 for the dry. You dont need a 4/12. A single 12 will do.
With a digital plate reverb and some delay, its pretty tight. The trick is the mix of the dry and wet from 2 separate speaker sources. Amps with effects loops really can not accomplish that sound because of the conflicting texture of the sounds will muddy. They still come out of the same source speaker. IMO.

Welcome brother.....


Warning: don't feed "Dirtycooter" or "Leadguy".

Thanks for the input vanhalen5150. It sounds like you completely understand what I'm trying to do. If I used my THD Hotplate's line-out to feed the second amp for the "wet" tones. Would I need to alter that line-out signal before sending it to an amp?

dirtycooter wrote: Too funny!

But the example of eventide delay detuned at 100 ms fed into a crap Boss hall {they didn't have a bright plate }reverb is in the clip I had ILMM post up-listen for the slap strong reflection. Just swamp that delayed signal in a bright tailed reverb-just don't put it on the dry main sound and mudville stays away .

Listen in the right speaker alone on the right wet side with headphones on by itself and compare to the original right at the intro-pretty close approximation as I could get with the equipment at hand-its EQ'd as a bright kinda verb and I still wasn't bright enough but close as I could get I thought. It woulda been better had I brightened up the actual slap source itself on the wet delay side feeding the verb which is simple as addin more on the hi color from the palmer for the delay to be brighter. But recording is all new to me and I am in the learning stage for sure.

It just illustrates the "eventide delay theory on VH1" anyway. Whether or not they fed it to a plate or a live room is still unknown-but there was only one way to get that "pre-delay" back in that day no matter which verb type was used Either studio tape delay-early digital delay-or the cutting edge eventide 910 delay/pitch machine had to be used.

Thanks again dirtycooter. I hope you received my response to your message.

Key is this
Don't send the dry to any reverb-leave it completely alone and pan it to the left completely.

Instead-send a duplicated completely 100% wet 100ms delayed copy to the opposite side on the right.

This delay needs EQ'd maybe to taste however-then send THAT signal to the stereo reverb on an auxillary send.
mono dry on left-mono delayed detuned voice on the right-stereo verb popping up from the right delayed voice spreading over in stereo spilling onto the left channel slightly for stereo width.

Then you have complete control of the signal entering the verb as well as all the verb paramaters as well without at all screwin with the dry tone one bit appearing on the left.

Predelay parameter on a nice verb? turn that off or minimize its predelay time if you can and use the delayed voice in place of that predelay parameter. Some really nice verbs can be adjusted on the predelay to sound great-most don't though sound the same as probably how they did it in the studio though.

In my case-its subdued some to be more like an echo and then detuned slightly-which lowers the pitch of the verb it feeds too making it more ominous without extra wetness or length of verb tail. Mess around here with the slaps brightness and verbs brightness to get the final result.

It was the eventide delay theory someone posted here feeding a plate verb [which had no pre-delay paramters to adjust back then] that made me try this-without the delay detuned thing-the verb sounds no where near as good to my ears and I believe thats just what they did in the studio-whether it was fed to the live room or a plate-it gets that echoey verb thing better than just verb alone and does allow more of that cave sound to be added without mud. Detuning and stout abrupt slap delay get it done. the verb is not so complex to get as is the voice of that slap is that feeds it. You bascially get that slap just right then swamp the piss out of it in verb.
I messd with slap delays forever and reverbs alone forever-once you combine the two of those the right way then you'll find it as it is much more complex than either of those fx by them selves alone.

Those strong "early reflections" with a reverb "tail"-thats what you're after

Dig wrote:

vanhalen5150 wrote:Your rabbit hole bound Dig. Endless paradox vortex. Cornucopia of endless opinions.


Not sure what the output level of the mic out line is but I would assume it would be a regular line out. (never assume).
Most likely you could run that into a second amp with effects. Most preferable an amp with an effects loop. Would give you decent sound and a place to start your verb quest.

I've gotten some great results lately by just running a signal tap directly from a speaker(dry) into a second amp(wet). This is the same as using a second speaker output from the amp as well. Since the level for the wet is much reduced for the album sound, you can just have a small amp for that. Im just using a modified Epiphone valve junior into a Celest V30 1/12 for the wet and a 4/12 for the dry. You dont need a 4/12. A single 12 will do.
With a digital plate reverb and some delay, its pretty tight. The trick is the mix of the dry and wet from 2 separate speaker sources. Amps with effects loops really can not accomplish that sound because of the conflicting texture of the sounds will muddy. They still come out of the same source speaker. IMO.

Welcome brother.....


Warning: don't feed "Dirtycooter" or "Leadguy".

Thanks for the input vanhalen5150. It sounds like you completely understand what I'm trying to do. If I used my THD Hotplate's line-out to feed the second amp for the "wet" tones. Would I need to alter that line-out signal before sending it to an amp?

The hotplate works fine for this. If you have an amp with an 'effects in' loop, use that instead of the normal channel in. The line out of the hotplate runs a bit hottter than it should and with an amps preamp it will cause a bit of distortion. With time based effects you obviously dont want that.,


I thought I warned you about something.......

Or instead of a hotplate the CAE or Suhr Lineout boxes will work to feed signal to FX-that even is low enough to feed delay pedals with out overloading them at their inputs.
But reverb on recording and reverb on a live rig-well-Ed just never used verb live-ever. Not even laying the tracks in the studio. If it was ever added it was in the PA or in the studio monitors-post mic. Other than that he stuck with delays ever since the beginning starting with tape echos.
The bottleneck happens when using a very detailed verb and pushing it through a guitar speaker-not quite the same as playing back a mic'd guitar speaker and listening back to it on "full range hi fi speakers".
Issues with resonation from the verb inside the 4x12 can happen if its bassy on the verb-and can totally muck up some clear tones. Its possible to tweak for it-but its different and harder to do than just adding it post mic.

A killer wet side amp is the Randall RH100, 200, 250 etc-plug into the FX loop "return" from your FX's outputs-its uncolored mosfet cleaner reproduction than most tube power sections and is warm and nice sounding as a slave adding no distortion or color. But its mono so for stereo you'd need 2 of them for each wet side.

Have a look at what Bob Bradshaw does for players live rigs.

http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com/2010/ ... dshaw.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

feed://www.fuzzybogart.com/?feed=rss2&cat=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

leadguy wrote:Have a look at what Bob Bradshaw does for players live rigs.

http://bobbyowsinski.blogspot.com/2010/ ... dshaw.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

feed://www.fuzzybogart.com/?feed=rss2&cat=8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Taking all that stuff out of the signal chain is key. Im currently working on a new board using a 6 and 3 switch from these guys. The box's are pro quality thick aluminum.

http://www.roadrageprogear.com/news.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A dude with practical advice about George Lynch and playing style, gear importance, playing live, frequency mixing of instruments etc

http://www.rebbeach.com/history_faq_gear.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The first VH album is the live room reverb (as told by Donn Landee) mixed in various ways with the guitar frequencies being given priority in the mix and this is important for a sense of space and in the above link Reb Beach talks about Back In Black and the frequency mix.

No JBL's on the VH1 recording because it's just 2 guitar tracks from 2 mics on a speaker cone in different positions giving a higher frequency track and a lower frequency track and then mixed together and put through various reverb room re-amps.
No JBL's from the end of May Mumps Whiskey cabinet photos and the end of December Whiskey bikini competition cabinet photos, just Celestions.
The JBL's came later for live playing.

Forget about getting the VH1 studio tone for live playing, even Ed couldn't, he and Rudy had to bring in JBL's to get sort of near it on the road.

Playing live is a different ball game from the studio. Varying live playing acoustics, PA,s and who is running them and how they are mixing the whole bands frequency pockets etc etc.
The studio is a nice controlled environment with stable acoustics, effect processing etc etc.

The other VH albums could be plate, eventides other new tech things etc etc.

I totally agree on the JBL thing-when I heard those JBL clips and the greenback clips and once I started moving around mics and actually recording and listening to what it sounds like on the different areas of the cone I realized that bright sound was actually most likely one mic centered on the dust cap and one mic further out on the paper of a greenback.

Now I got more experimenting there to do But I wonder about using just center dry 4x12 and two stereo PA monitors for the delay and verb how that would sound inplace of the wet 4x12's-Hmmmmmmm.....

dirtycooter wrote:Instead-send a duplicated completely 100% wet 100ms delayed copy to the opposite side on the right.

This delay needs EQ'd maybe to taste however-then send THAT signal to the stereo reverb on an auxillary send.

mono dry on left-mono delayed detuned voice on the right-stereo verb popping up from the right delayed voice spreading over in stereo spilling onto the left channel slightly for stereo width.

very interesting!! i have to try this - in theory it just sounds like a great way get a huge verb without submerging into the muck - which has always been the challenge of getting the VHI verb - there's a perception of a ton of verb but it's really not a ton or else it wouldn't have the TRACTION that it does. elusive - but your recipe here sounds right on. gotta try it. thanks for the info dc!