C*rr*m Mod?

[StuntDouble]

IMHO, the 2k3k clip sounds the best, it makes the 500ohm clip sound slightly dark, wooly and compressed in comparison. Conversely, the reamped clip, sounds thinner, weaker and more sizzly in comparison both the 500ohm and 2k3k clips. Outstanding!

[vh junkie]

Yup, I worked my way down from 3k to 500. I rolled "tape" for all takes cause I was expecting something bad to happen. I should have figured out how to mark each take with the ohmage, but I wanted to get through it. The 2k3k take was the third one, so it may have been 2k or 2.5k... I did some takes twice because I had to reset the power brake output to keep cabinet volume relatively consistent, so I'm not exactly sure which ones were at which ohmage.

I think a decent re-amp clip is the hardest thing to come up with... this is a way better performance than I could come up with, but there is a tendency for the re-amp clip to have a lot of string noise and twang.... rather than to try to pre-eq the re-amp clip, we just let it go as is...

...the thing to take away from all of this is the difference in adding the resistor across the plates... instead of being midrangey, flat or sterile as predicted; there is a certain familiar and pleasant fullness to it... I miss a little of the original sizzle... but there is something there...

I should redo the tests starting at 5k and working my way down to 2k.

There were no fireworks... no extreme tube glow... just the smell of burning wood as the power resistors tormented the board I had them screwed into!

[Strat78]

I'm really liking the reamp clip now. It was spooky hearing it tonight because I thought you were processing the original VHI track for comparison. It is definitely thinned out a bit compared to the others, but it's got everything but that middy jbl or off axis mic placement quality. It just needs to have that strange hollow honk added in somehow. The other clips were fuller but were further away from the VHI tone (tomorrow I'll probably think differently).. By the way, that guy playing needs to put a Callaham bridge back into that guitar. Those brass bridges on heavy ash guitars are just too thin and brittle sounding.

[leadguy]

Lower resistor values are going to set the primary impedance low and resistive.
Higher resistor values are going to have less resistive effect on the primary impedance and the primary impedance will be higher and more like it is when there is no resistor.

[Strat78]

Wow, bigger, badder, fuller...Daddy like!

BTW, remember that time a forum member here proposed the idea that Ed's reamping might have been done post recording and not in a live setup. That is to say that it would have afforded him more flexibility with EQ'ing and would have allowed him to punch in his effects under a controlled setting for recordings. I can't remember off hand who brought up that idea, but I recall him getting flamed for it. These clips do kind of make you wonder though.

It's totally possible, however it is pretty difficult to play with such a dry naked tone in your ears. Templeman would have had to tap a clean signal from Ed's rig to get something that would re-amp properly. Running a fully tube saturated clip back into the amp would seem to yield very compressed results. But then again isn't that what a slaving rig is doing?

It would be very cool if we could find a way to make clean clips to re-amp on different rigs. If someone wanted a convenient way to hear how a certain guitar and pickup in combo with different mods would sound through their rig, all they would have to do is have someone provide the raw clip. I think the POD clean tracks have artificial artifacts that effect the tone when put through a real amp, so there must be a better way. It is quite striking hearing the raw, naked clip and then to hear how it sounds when re-amped. vh-junkie should post that clip without the re-amping.

[leadguy]

Don't quote me on this but as I understand it from Ted Templman and Donn Landee interviews it seems like Ed's amp was miced by 2 mics and then sent to the mixing board and then redirected to the live reverb room (out of the Alto Lansing speaker and caught on mics in the reverb room) that Donn Landee had already set up beforehand and then back to the monitor ie earphones that Ed and Al used and whoever was playing live (in isolated rooms) with them, like Mike as well.
So Ed probably would have been hearing the feed from the mixer with the reverb room included.

Ted would have then had dry and wet (reverb) realtime recordings to play with and also different levels of reverb as well (set up by Donn Landees mic positions and acoustic padding in the reverb room) for the final mixing.

Ted and Donn were not amateurs, they knew every trick in the book back then.

So the reverb room reamping seems to have been done in real time. and not just for Van Halen but for other acts as well like Montrose for example or whatever act/song Ted and Donn thought needed the reverb room.
That's one of the reasons for Studio 1 at Sunset Sound being used, because of the live reverb room connected to Studio 1.

With Ed's Echoplex and Phase, which are all time based effects, combined with the pretty heavy reverb room reverb that was set up by Donn Landee, it really can't help but sound like VH1 really.

Plate reverb just doesn't have the spacious real quality that room reverb does IMO because with the room reverb, the acoustics of the reverb room play a big part in what sort of reverb that gets produced and acoustical reverb has to be more natural than plate reverb really.

[Strat78]

Here are some before and after clips.
I used a reamp clip supplied by a fellow forum member (should not be too hard to figure out who is playing!).
Both clips were recorded on the same night with the same settings.
Except: The ****** resistor required me to boost PowerBrake output level to compensate for the loss in volume.

Original recording:

reamped_dreamer.mp3

About 2.5k across the plates:

reamped_dreamer_******_2k3k.mp3

500 ohms across the plates:

reamped_dreamer_******_500ohm.mp3

I think 500 ohms may be kind of extreme. 2k would probably be enough to let the sonic effect the mod makes come through.

This is a really awesome post vh-junkie! Could you post the clean track just so people can hear what exactly was re-amped? The c e r r e m mod is cool but maybe a little too much of the high end is lost. At least on my computer speakers, the first recording sounds the best to me. It's got that nice open airy tone, but it is missing some midrange subtleties or that certain squawk.

[leadguy]

Also, Ted really layed the reverb on thick, much thicker than with other artists because Ted was trying to make Ed's guitar sound big, hence the 2 channel final mix, with the unusual different channels reverb levels.

[Strat78]

Also, Ted really layed the reverb on thick, much thicker than with other artists because Ted was trying to make Ed's guitar sound big, hence the 2 channel final mix, with the unusual different channels reverb levels.

I think the initial recorded tone was probably very harsh yet became uniquely musical and even beautiful with Ted's reverb technique. This is my experience when trying to get clips to sound better for posting. When trying to get the VHI core tone you find that it needs to be pretty raw when going onto tape, it only begins to blooms into something wonderful when adding post reverb.

[leadguy]

So Ed's got this loud raw sound that's being enclosed by the Echoplex and producing a loud raw ambient sound and that is then being enclosed by more ambiance from the reverb room.
When Ed has the Echoplex off, as in the verse of the 2 RWTD raw mic tracks, then it really sounds like a average plexi setup in a good acoustics room and nothing really special IMO and Ed's playing is nothing special in the RWTD verse as well, so it's a combination of a lot of things including Ed's playing.

The acoustics at Sunset Sound are really great.

Ed could produce this sound live to some extent, mainly because of the Echoplex to get the ambiance and depending on what the venue acoustics were like and how the micing was done (ever heard of a dead room) and what effects they were using at the live mixer board, but really none of those 1977/1978 boots really sound like VH1 does and no one could seriously expect it anyway because the studio environment and the live venue environment are 2 different things.

[vh junkie]

Here are some before and after clips.
I used a reamp clip supplied by a fellow forum member (should not be too hard to figure out who is playing!).
Both clips were recorded on the same night with the same settings.
Except: The ****** resistor required me to boost PowerBrake output level to compensate for the loss in volume.

Original recording:

reamped_dreamer.mp3

About 2.5k across the plates:

reamped_dreamer_******_2k3k.mp3

500 ohms across the plates:

reamped_dreamer_******_500ohm.mp3

I think 500 ohms may be kind of extreme. 2k would probably be enough to let the sonic effect the mod makes come through.

This is a really awesome post vh-junkie! Could you post the clean track just so people can hear what exactly was re-amped? The c e r r e m mod is cool but maybe a little too much of the high end is lost. At least on my computer speakers, the first recording sounds the best to me. It's got that nice open airy tone, but it is missing some midrange subtleties or that certain squawk.

Here ya go:
This clip went through:
MBox Mini LineOut
Jensen 4:1 TX
the GE-10 (frown curve, right 3 sliders pulled down an additional 8db, to reduce the string twang abit)
EP-Pre(unity gain)
Input at the amp jack was checked with an Oscilloscope to ensure the level was the same as with a guitar plugged in.

All clips were recorded with this setup and mic positioning.
Only the PowerBrake output was increased as the ****** resistor was reduced.

[Rich_D]

Plate reverb just doesn't have the spacious real quality that room reverb does

Of course the reverb room at Sunset is as much as anything responsible for the lavish Templeton/VH sound, but ironically I think I remember someone in the band saying that the crashing sound at the end of Tora Tora was them kicking a reverb plate. Just a curiosity, off topic.

[Strat78]

When Ed has the Echoplex off, as in the verse of the 2 RWTD raw mic tracks, then it really sounds like a average plexi setup in a good acoustics room

He has also backed the volume on the guitar off a bit, which brings it down to that average marshall crunch. But when he turns up the volume that tone is just beautiful. It's distorted and fat yet it has clear string separation as well. You can really here the B string singing out quite clearly! This is baffling me.

[efraser68]

Here are some before and after clips.
I used a reamp clip supplied by a fellow forum member (should not be too hard to figure out who is playing!).
Both clips were recorded on the same night with the same settings.
Except: The ****** resistor required me to boost PowerBrake output level to compensate for the loss in volume.

Original recording:

reamped_dreamer.mp3

About 2.5k across the plates:

reamped_dreamer_******_2k3k.mp3

500 ohms across the plates:

reamped_dreamer_******_500ohm.mp3

I think 500 ohms may be kind of extreme. 2k would probably be enough to let the sonic effect the mod makes come through.

This is a really awesome post vh-junkie! Could you post the clean track just so people can hear what exactly was re-amped? The c e r r e m mod is cool but maybe a little too much of the high end is lost. At least on my computer speakers, the first recording sounds the best to me. It's got that nice open airy tone, but it is missing some midrange subtleties or that certain squawk.

Here ya go:

reamp_dreamer.mp3

This clip went through:
MBox Mini LineOut
Jensen 4:1 TX
the GE-10 (frown curve, right 3 sliders pulled down an additional 8db, to reduce the string twang abit)
EP-Pre(unity gain)
Input at the amp jack was checked with an Oscilloscope to ensure the level was the same as with a guitar plugged in.

All clips were recorded with this setup and mic positioning.
Only the PowerBrake output was increased as the ****** resistor was reduced.

Are you kidding, this was the original version before....and what produced the reamp clip. Unbelievable

[Strat78]

Are you kidding, this was the original version before....and what produced the reamp clip. Unbelievable

Pretty wild huh. Lots of possibilities here.