Pix or a link for the back's of Ed's 70's era JBL's?

[bortz]

More interested in finding out the model he used or any other info on what these first LP JBL's were exactly

[spaceace76]

I don't think any exist. The JBL's he most likely used D120's, or D120F's which is the same speaker.

[vanhalen5150]

I think it was the D120F. The D just stood for "Dome or Dustcap" which was aluminum and the F just meant they were destined to go into Fender amps. From what I've read, the D120 without the F is identical.

[bortz]

Okay thanks guys. After doing some research, I came across this:

"Peavey claims that their 1203 and 1501DT-4 Black Widow speakers are voiced to the "D" series JBLs. We've done low to moderate level listening comparisons and they do indeed sound extremely close. The 15" being one of the most favorites with pedal steel guitar players."

Check out how Peavey describes the black widows. From their web site:

"1203-4 and 8 Black Widows
The 1203 is the 12" Black Widow/Super Structure designed for musical instrument applications. Able to handle high power yet maintain a bright crisp high-end with maximum output, the 1203 is the choice of many demanding musicians. For that high-end "edge,"[ the 1203 utilizes a special paper cone for those distinctive guitar and keyboard sounds. Available in 8 ohm and 4 ohm versions."

Maybe what they describe as "high end edge" is what we describe as Ed's high end sizzle? Anyways, from what I've been reading, all these ebay d-120's and 120f's are either rebuilt/reconed or beat up and there are currently no recone kits to bring them back to the original stock tone. That's why the investigation into a clone.

Allegedly, the Allman brothers tone comes from the LP/Marshall/JBL chain, and since that's obviously not early Ed tone, maybe it is Ed's specific amp combined with the JBL/Celestion combo cab, plus the recording and mastering work, with the emphasis being the Ed amp/jbl combo. Any other recording artists using Marshall with JBL's?

[spaceace76]

Any other recording artists using Marshall with JBL's?

not that I know of. actually, when i first read that Ed was using them I thought it was a lie, since there's such an emphasis on his use of greenbacks. but it explains a hell of a lot about his tone.

Allegedly, the Allman brothers tone comes from the LP/Marshall/JBL chain, and since that's obviously not early Ed tone, maybe it is Ed's specific amp combined with the JBL/Celestion combo cab, plus the recording and mastering work, with the emphasis being the Ed amp/jbl combo.

the implication is that the celestions cover the lows, and the jbl's handle the highs. it's also been suggested that EQ is added in post production that boosts the 8k and 10k frequencies. listen to the raw tracks again. this is all substantiated by comparing the raw (that's with no post and no reverb) to the recording. The celestions sound almost muffled, and the jbl's are fairly bright. add the verb and EQ in post and you've got THE tone. no secret/magic boxes, no insane marshall mods, just Ed and the gear we've already had proof he used. the result is that wide bandwidth, huge sound that everyone loves. studio tricks are the key to the tone. if I had the cash i'd be investing in trying different JBL clones, and some extra mics.

[bortz]

To be honest spaceace, I thought the slaving technique was the answer but after hearing the various slaved clips, i could hear that it was indeed something else responsible for that high end sizzle that soumds like it's on the verge of melting something, only heard on the first album.
I think this board should shift gears a little bit and take the tone chase in the JBL direction now. That's where I'm headed at least Thanks for your comments

[vanhalen5150]

Eminence Commonwealth 50Hz-4kHz
Peavey Black Widow 55Hz-4kHz
Beyman Liberty 8 50Hz-6kHz

JBL's D120F's went up to 8kHz. There is really nothing out there right now that is an exact clone, from what I know. Must still be a few of these around still sitting in amps.

[Strat78]

I think it is the aluminum dust covers that are affecting the tone most. Allan Holdsworth would always have them replaced with paper because they were too bright hand harsh sounding. Perhaps we should try doing the opposite and swapping in some aluminum dust covers into greenbacks and see if that imparts that nice crackle and sparkle.

[bortz]

Maybe Ted Weber could whip up something with the 4" voice coil, aluminum dust cover and a nice low end. I don't know how receptive he would be to a one off production run just for our purposes or if he would give us a price break. Over a hundred bucks is a bad investment just for an experiment, if it doesn't work

The first thing to figure out is if it is the combination with JBL and Celestion that does the trick or if an "all in one" type speaker can be manufactured. I suppose with all the different choices in speakers available, someone should have stumbled onto a brown sound type speaker by now if a single speaker was the case?

[908ssp]

If you just wanted to add some top end to a greenback cab you could add a tweeter of sorts. They are relatively cheap take up very little room and their impedance is typically so high as to not effect the over all cab impedance. Designing a crossover with a volume control is easy enough and that way you can dial in the highs you want.

[spaceace76]

To be honest spaceace, I thought the slaving technique was the answer but after hearing the various slaved clips, i could hear that it was indeed something else responsible for that high end sizzle that soumds like it's on the verge of melting something, only heard on the first album.
I think this board should shift gears a little bit and take the tone chase in the JBL direction now. That's where I'm headed at least Thanks for your comments

i did too! i thought slaving was the answer. the more i studied it though, the less i believed it. there is evidence that Ed slaved on FW and later albums, even live, but it's just not there on the early albums.

it sounded sort of right, but it's not supported by the evidence. the VHII session shots only show Ed's main head, and it looks like it's wired right up to the cabs around him.

The JBL's are the best answer because
1. we have those raw tracks. put them together in your favorite audio editing software (i used reaper), and they sound wonderful. alone, they're not any better or worse than anything posted here (except perhaps rockstah/Ralle clips. tx802's preamp is pretty nice too). add in reverb and then an 8k and 10k boost, and you've got the recorded tone.
2. The second album's tone is a great clue. We've got shots of the JBL's from that era, but there isn't necessarily any evidence to say that he used them on the album. Ed has stated that he didn't like the first albums tone, and if he's willing to hack up guitars, amps, cabs, etc, i dont think changing out a few speakers is beyond him. he could have used them though, and just mic'd or EQ'd them differently. in fact, that's the most likely scenario. it would support the "studo voodoo" idea as well.
3. There aren't any early photos that have a mysterious load box. There are several with JBL's though. And even more with Variac's. That seems to be the only "magic box" Ed could have used.

The fact is, everyone is after that high end bite, sizzle, but few have gone after the JBL's idea. It's the last stone left unturned and there is more to support it every day. However, there are few good clones, and most originals that come up for sale have been reconed at least once.

The only clone not yet mentioned in this thread is the Weber Neomag, which is supposedly very good, but since i've never owned a JBL D120 or a Neomag i have no idea that it's as good as it claims.

https://taweber.powweb.com/weber/neo12.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I suppose with all the different choices in speakers available, someone should have stumbled onto a brown sound type speaker by now if a single speaker was the case?

maybe, but not yet since everyone's been looking to greenbacks! if we're right about the JBL's, then GB's have been a wild goose chase all along.

[T.J.Fuller]

there is suppose to be an exact clone out there of the d-120

Its made by Standel -Standel S-12

couldn't find it on there website

there was a speaker review ( shootout ) in vintage guitar magazine and they gave this speaker high praise.

but, it's also ridiculously priced 300-400 a pop per the review

[Good Guest]

Here is some more info on the Standel s12 from " Alnico taste test"


http://www.webervst.com/bt9908.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Ruben]

[

quote="spaceace76"]

The fact is, everyone is after that high end bite, sizzle, but few have gone after the JBL's idea. It's the last stone left unturned and there is more to support it every day. However, there are few good clones, and most originals that come up for sale have been reconed at least once

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... 23&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[spaceace76]

quote="spaceace76"]The fact is, everyone is after that high end bite, sizzle, but few have gone after the JBL's idea. It's the last stone left unturned and there is more to support it every day. However, there are few good clones, and most originals that come up for sale have been reconed at least once

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php ... 23&start=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

yeah i've seen that thread. i responded to it with many of the same comments i put here. but there hasn't been much advancement in the D120 area yet. Like I said, it's been documented and photographed, but there aren't any clips, just lots of speculation and those raw tracks.