VH 10 June 1977 boot and Ed's gear

[wjamflan]

FWIW, the boot referenced in the OP is the first time Ed sounds like he did on VH I. It's not the best quality-wise, so you might want to seek out Magic Mountain and the Civic/Nightmare boots which bookend the recording of VH I. They are much clearer and eye opening in the details....

For those that need help...

RWTD at Whisky (6/10/77): http://www.mediafire.com/listen/nafk9p1 ... Whisky.mp3

RWTD at Magic Mountain (7/77): http://www.mediafire.com/listen/pfl5h14 ... untain.mp3

RWTD at Pasadena Civic (10/15/77): http://www.mediafire.com/listen/ucbpga4 ... _Civic.mp3

You can hear the bar in the last two, so those are definitely Franky. Sorry for the sidebar. Hope this helps. Back to the 50W/100W discussion...

[Tone Slinger]

The pickup in the Franky on VH1 then, should be concluded to be a double black coil paf. This still, however, doesnt disclose exactly what spec it was (output, magnet, etc) Gibson or not. There is a slight tone difference between the '77 live tone compared to the '78 live tone. This is either because of two reasons imo

1) Ed, like strat78 said, tended to daisy chain/blend that small box 50 head with the 12xxx in '77. The gig size was obviously smaller in '77. Ed went with 3 daisy chained 100's in '78. A 50 watter tends to have a slightly 'smaller' soundstage/headroom and compresses a little more.

2) All of the above PLUS, Eds paf was still stock (which would still be unknown as to what the output and magnet was). Then, just prior to the '78 tour Ed got this same Pickup rewound by Seymour to be a tad hotter ?

[wjamflan]

The pickup in the Franky on VH1 then, should be concluded to be a double black coil paf. This still, however, doesnt disclose exactly what spec it was (output, magnet, etc) Gibson or not.

Ed said he had the PAF in Franky re-wound before recording VH I. He said he liked the way the re-wound PAFs sounded on the record. As for the spec - A2 Gibson 335 PAF re-wound by SD to @ 9.85K (aka the Evenly Voiced Harmonics wind)

There is a slight tone difference between the '77 live tone compared to the '78 live tone. This is either because of two reasons imo

1) Ed, like strat78 said, tended to daisy chain/blend that small box 50 head with the 12xxx in '77. The gig size was obviously smaller in '77. Ed went with 3 daisy chained 100's in '78. A 50 watter tends to have a slightly 'smaller' soundstage/headroom and compresses a little more.

2) All of the above PLUS, Eds paf was still stock (which would still be unknown as to what the output and magnet was). Then, just prior to the '78 tour Ed got this same Pickup rewound by Seymour to be a tad hotter ?

I think Iommi setup and the addition of the 10 band eqs account for the difference you hear in the '78 tour boots. It was not another pickup change at that point. The hotter winds came with the Floyd.

Ed said he recorded VH I with two heads and two cabs (Celestions + JBLs). I haven't seen any quote telling us if one was a 50W, but I think Phil probably has that right.

[wjamflan]

Young Guitar - June 1978 - Japan

[EJSLPlexi]

Ed said he had the PAF in Franky re-wound before recording VH I. He said he liked the way the re-wound PAFs sounded on the record. As for the spec - A2 Gibson 335 PAF re-wound by SD to @ 9.85K (aka the Evenly Voiced Harmonics wind)

The 78 is at 9K and i dont think that pu is on VH I at all.
The old duncan 13.6K custom is much more likely for the first record with the 78 being used on VH II.
the 78 does not have the in your face aggressiveness to be the pu on VH I.
The duncan custom is right in between a 78 and dsd or MM1300 tone/power wise

[EJSLPlexi]

2) All of the above PLUS, Eds paf was still stock (which would still be unknown as to what the output and magnet was). Then, just prior to the '78 tour Ed got this same Pickup rewound by Seymour to be a tad hotter ?

He never used a stock PAF on any recording/tour except hot for teacher and any VH track that he played the 1958 gibson
flying V, that guitar had stock PAF's
listen to HFT, thats the tone of a stock PAF.
I think he took a PAF to seymour to get it wound to the custom spec(13.6K ceramic)
Ps, the 78 is really nothing far out from a regular PAF, there were many stock PAF's that had a resistance of 9K like the 78.
gibson even sells the 57 classic plus which is a tribute to PAF's wound to 9K
and think about this,
EVERY EVH sig guitar that was made/sold had a pickup in it that was 13K or even higher,
EVH wolfgang(14K bridge p'u)
PV wolfgang(14k)
EBMM EVH(16K)
Charvel art series (16K)
EVH stripe series(14K)
even the old 1980-82 charvel Bee copies were sold stock with a 13K ceramic
and the EVH frankenstein p'u they sell is 14K
so where is this 9K PAF or any p'u that is under 13K?

[rgorke]

I'd say VH1 is more the Duncan Custom and Vh2 is the '78 model.

Having said that, does it really matter if we can prove one way or the other. SInce we don't each have Ed's amps nor do any of us have his hands, one has to find what pickup works best for their set up, etc. I get convincing enough, for my purposes VH tone that I am happy with. Isn't that what this is all about? Finding a tone that you like. Determining or arguing about what pickup exactly was in Sunset #1, we will never know.

So...how about that Jose modded pedal?

[wjamflan]

the 78 does not have the in your face aggressiveness to be the pu on VH I.

It does when used with the mxr 6 band eq.

I think he took a PAF to seymour to get it wound to the custom spec(13.6K ceramic)

You are not the first person on this board to directly contradict what Ed, Tube Tramp and everyone else who was around at the time has said. In fact, that was why LG started this thread in the first place (one of the main reasons) - to prove that Ed recorded VH I with something other than what he said - a re-wound PAF by SD. Oh well. I've tried.....

I'd say VH1 is more the Duncan Custom and Vh2 is the '78 model.

Why not Roger....

Having said that, does it really matter if we can prove one way or the other.

If it doesn't matter, a whole lot of people have gone through a whole lot of of trouble to call Ed and everyone else who says re-wound PAF liars, etc.

Determining or arguing about what pickup exactly was in Sunset #1, we will never know.

Only if you don't believe Ed....

[EJSLPlexi]

I think he took a PAF to seymour to get it wound to the custom spec(13.6K ceramic)

You are not the first person on this board to directly contradict what Ed, Tube Tramp and everyone else who was around at the time has said. In fact, that was why LG started this thread in the first place (one of the main reasons) - to prove that Ed recorded VH I with something other than what he said - a re-wound PAF by SD. Oh well. I've tried.....

Tube tramp was quoted as saying eddie used stock PAF's and we KNOW that is not true right from eddie himself
I am not calling eddie a liar at all, he did say "i use a rewound PAF"
"REWOUND PAF "can be a 13K duncan custom or anything?
When you "rewind" any PAF it can be wound to any resistance and the wire gauge can be changed.
why are you so convinced it was wound at 9K?
My ears tell me that the strat on VH I had a hotter pu than the 78 without or without EQ.
the duncan 78 does not prove anything about VH I? says a lot for VH II though.

[wjamflan]

Tube tramp was quoted as saying eddie used stock PAF's and we KNOW that is not true right from eddie himself
I am not calling eddie a liar at all, he did say "i use a rewound PAF"
"REWOUND PAF "can be a 13K duncan custom or anything?
When you "rewind" any PAF it can be wound to any resistance and the wire gauge can be changed.
why are you so convinced it was wound at 9K?
My ears tell me that the strat on VH I had a hotter pu than the 78 without or without EQ.
the duncan 78 does not prove anything about VH I? says a lot for VH II though.

Here's what Terry said:

Re: anyone here believe that EDDIE even ever used the duncan
by Tube Tramp on 03 Apr 2004 03:54 am

id like to put to rest the speculation about what pickup edward used.in the early days first four record it was paf gibson humbuckings period.i know this is true i saw all those guitars and they often had the same pickup hed move from one to the next he had one he really liked ...true story so if you sittin around wondering what he used in the old days .your troubles are over it was a gibson PAF no upstart........there do you feel better now lol

Where does he say the word "stock" in there? Do you have a different quote than this one from the old Plexi Palace board?

I don't mean to argue with you, but it's hilarious to me when folks twist quotes, take things out of context, and apply whatever "logic" they can to prove their own theories. For anyone who's been here for a bit, this isn't our first trip to the rodeo. The search button is your friend. Of course, it is a free country. Believe what you want. Obviously you don't believe Ed.

[Tone Slinger]

Well it could have very well been just the amp used. That small box 50 cranking could play into the difference in tone from '77 to '78. I personally like this '78 pu best of all when playing early Evh stuff. Its the subtle qualities it has on the guitars volume, as well as never turning on TOO hard. More and more I've been noticing how hot pu's SO easily conpress into a typical 'metal' type thing. The gain is really a set back to alot of amps and set ups.

Still, that early tone can be approximated in SO many ways.

[EJSLPlexi]

"wjamflan"

Believe what you want. Obviously you don't believe Ed.

Where did i say i don't believe ed? You still have shown NO PROOF of what the PAF was rewound to?
If the duncan custom was something eddie had nothing to do with or use why did he get so bent out of shape
(He was going to sue the guy over it!) for advertising it as a VH model?
as far as the tubetramp quote he told everyone that eddie used gibson PAF's as in not rewound PAF's.
How is that twisting anything???
when someone says gibson PAF you get the picture they are referring to a PAF pulled from a old gibson and used as is.
That is why i said "stock" because that is how TT worded it.
He did not say he used gibson PAF's that he had rewound.

[Tone Slinger]

Probably because he never used it (Custom )? That would make me mad in the same situation

[EJSLPlexi]

Probably because he never used it (Custom )? That would make me mad in the same situation

But back then eddie loved it when others were thrown off the trail of what he was really up to so why would he give a rats ass if seymour was selling a pu that was NOTHING like what he was using

here is a interesting quote from someone who talked to seymour

"I have used a Duncan Custom from way back. I had a guitar built for me by Performance guitars back in '87 (Yes I am an old dog:-))

Back then, before there was endless choices of pickups like there is now, I called Seymour and actually got to talk with Seymour himself. I of course was an Eddie freak back then and was having Performance building me a guitar (basic super strat) to do the Eddie stuff.

Seymour told me to put a Duncan Custom in it. Now...this was in '87. While there are many more options available now, back then it was Seymour's answer to Ed's tone.

It is a bit hotter than the standard PAF, but I was able to get pretty good tone out of it for VH. It is a bit more brash due to the ceramic mags, but it has more top end bite and clarity than the Custom Custom. I have a Custom Custom as well in an Alder hot rodded strat and to me it seems more like a "Stone in Love" lead type of tone more so than the Eddie Tone. Ed's early tone almost has a twangy clear top end without a lot of gain. It is like more power than saturation and gain.

[wjamflan]

If the duncan custom was something eddie had nothing to do with or use why did he get so bent out of shape
(He was going to sue the guy over it!) for advertising it as a VH model?

"I understand". It seems we have another instance of backwards supposition, but I'll play along. Here's the ad:



Please look at the dates circled at the bottom of the ad. This "The Duncan Custom (Van Halen)" model pickup would have been for the yellow and black striped "Bee" which had been outfitted with a Floyd at that point. It is most likely the white humbucker you see in pics from the time. For example:


Ed later put the same or similar pickup into Franky when it got it's Floyd. But just because he used this pickup in mid '79 and beyond, doesn't mean you can backwards date it and say that he used it in '77 and '78. Again, believe what you want, but you are repeating some of the same fallacies that have been repeated around here ad nauseum for years. Bottom line: guitar with Floyd does not equal guitar with fender trem when it comes to pickups. Ed was very clear about this.

The proof of what he did use in '77 and '78 has been discussed before. Please use the search and you'll see that there is a wealth of info about how Ed went to Seymour before recording the first album - when he was still using the Fender trem. Hope that helps.