How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

For all things to build the brown sound

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WERNER1
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How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by WERNER1 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:57 pm

Hey guys,..

Now that I've finally got a "Brown Sound" amp ('77 SL done up by RockStah YEAH!!!)... I'm looking to record this amp and dial in those tones..

I'm well versed in PC based recording and all,.. but I'm just not sure on what some of you are doing to get "That Sound" while recording,...

The more I listen to the clips around here and the actual recordings, it almost seems like the recording process is one of the main keys to getting that sound (Not to mention the amp, fingers, guitar/pups, speakers....).. but still, the recording process for this sound has always made me wonder...

If someone could break down the "How to" on this subject that would be great!,... I did some searching on here but never came up with anything,.. I also saw that there was a "Sound & Recording" forum,.. but since you guys here deal strictly with the VH end of things,.. well I decided to post it here,.. hope that's alright (?) :D

From what I gather,.. you'd record a stereo track and pan it pretty hard left (?) say 75-100'ish?,.. sounds like there's a pretty long tailed verb on there,.. maybe some sort of "Hall" verb? ,... I'm sure a few delay/echo repeats on the tail would top off the cake pretty nicely as well (??)..

Any info you guys could offer me on this subject would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance,
Rick

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WERNER1
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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by WERNER1 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:40 pm

:?

hmmmm...

cary chilton

Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by cary chilton » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:57 am

Rick, don't record hotter than -10dB, that is to say your HARDEST hit on the strings don't go over -10dB. I usually track much quieter, peaks at -15dB and steadystate at around -20dB. Most AD/DA can't be trusted...get the best recording possible.

Mic positioning and technique and types of mics best is beyond what I have time for... plenty of books on it: Mixing with your mind etc...

thoughts on panning... contrary to what everyone says and even on VH1 Ed's gtr wasn't Always hardpanned 100% to the left and the reverb 100% to the right. FYI

Real VH1? Do you have a JBL D-120? No? hmmm Do this mixing at a quiet volume otherwise, don't bother...

Well do you have a great EQ in your DAW or some basic general piece of shit? hmmmm Well place a standard shelving EQ @ 50Hz.... depending on your Cabinet and speakers and most importantly the ROOM you might need to kill boominess even from 120Hz FYI... attentuate -4 to -6dB and at a Q setting your ears are telling you. Next, you need to reproduce what the JBL did to Ed's VH1 sound. Namely around 6-10 kHz. Don't settle on an EQ. Try all the ones you have. You might even find that one EQ is best at cutting the lows and another best for the 'sheen factor' added highs... Set your DAW to loop at various types of riffs etc and experiment between a high shelf and a bell EQ at around 3-10 kHz (depends on the Q setting ) main focus at around 8kHz. Boost to taste 4-6 dB should be plenty but don't be afraid to go higher as everyones room sound, cab and speakers are different. Just don't forget trim output, compare and match to the original signal-in. Important.


Have a send to a mono compressor, hopefully an 1176 or one like. This will be tedious finding a digital compressor in your DAW that sounds convincing. How to use the compressor ? That is beyond what I have time for.
I will say this, if you maintained your signal to the original level and your tracked modestly as I suggested, it will make your job at compression much easier. Anyway send level at pre fader @ 100% and slowly bring in the compression -probably at around -20dB??? Something subtle, little extra fullness and pick attack. ;) No pumping etc... This is called parallel compression FYI



Use a send -pre fader, 100%, one to a mono delay -hopefully a tape sim. delay if your DAW has one... Keep the Delay panned the same as your gtr's mono track panned position. Mix in slowly, maybe -25dB? on the mono delay channel. Should be a subtle thing, if you want his live sound, then add a bit more to where it is much more noticeable. Speed? Not that important since you will BARELY hear it... something like ATBL it is more important obviously. Somewhere around 60-120 ms.

Use a third a Send to a Stereo plate Reverb. Use a plate reverb -hopefully your DAW has a good one? Many DAW claim to have a good plate verb, but ..... also many plate sim. verbs all sound different, so discern........
The plate reverb will ALTER the tone of the amp -imparting its own character. Remember you just spent an hour on the best added quasi-D120 tone to your sound, it will now be fucked....don't worry to be expected, right? So now adjust the EQ -lower, bypassing and adjusting to match the pure original signal. You might find now, that the high boost needs a shelf instead of the bell you picked or a totally different Q.... blame it on the plate sim verb, whatever, it is a learning process and a necessary one. Last set pre-delay on the plate to 10-30 ms. This will sound more up front. If your not using a delay, your set 2 reverbs: one acting as a room mic and another as the plate verb. The room mic, would use a large room verb or short or med hall. Send 100%, you would have to EQ that channel, cutting quite a bit of highs and lows and compress them seperately and set the pre delay around 50-70ms and mix back in to taste. Anyway, back to point, if you don't want the guitar as up close, don't use pre delay, simple. Pan right side 90-100% hard right and the left, pan around 60-40% to the left.


Ok sorry gotta go, no more time to type. Some other mixing engineer can take over... ;)

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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by jerrydyer » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:05 pm

people with adhd dont like to read more than one paragraph.
vids.
http://www.youtube.com/user/jerrydyer?feature=mhw4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.dui-specialist.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

cary chilton

Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by cary chilton » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:16 pm

jerrydyer wrote:people with adhd dont like to read more than one paragraph.
be thankful I imparted anything.................................................

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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by Good Guest » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:43 pm

Failing you don't have a sunset sound studio or Cary at your side.. :lol:

You can try a sm57 mic 2 feet dead center from the cone and run it thru a ANALOG class "A" mic preamp and then muck around with reverbs , eq.s (graphic and parametric) compressors etc on your studio software program. The best clips I ever heard are done with a class "A" mic pre.

Pan your guitar left and make a reverb channel for the right...25% of the left channel.

cary chilton

Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by cary chilton » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:58 pm

thanks for the props goodguest

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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by rgorke » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:09 pm

Good Guest wrote:Failing you don't have a sunset sound studio or Cary at your side.. :lol:

You can try a sm57 mic 2 feet dead center from the cone and run it thru a ANALOG class "A" mic preamp and then muck around with reverbs , eq.s (graphic and parametric) compressors etc on your studio software program. The best clips I ever heard are done with a class "A" mic pre.

Pan your guitar left and make a reverb channel for the right...25% of the left channel.
Did you mean 2 feet or 2 inches? I thought many folks get a good recording just off the grill cloth. There is a really good article in a recording magazine. I will dig it up and post it for everyone.

I also think that the interface you use make a big difference. StaN gets good results with the Presonis fp10. I think that's the one.
"If you make a mistake, do it twice and smile and let people think you meant it." Jan Van Halen.

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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by Grosh_Guitars » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:42 pm

I have just close mic'd going right in to my iMac. Works very well. Use a 57. I use Logic Pro. I don't like the sound of the mic too far away from the cab, sounds hollow. But make sure when recording the Brown Sound you use a Brown mic and brown mic cable.. :lol:
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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by motrock » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:27 pm

I am getting ready to get one of those Apogee Duets for my iMac. They are supposed to work really good with Garage Band. But, I wander if they would work with PCs also. I was thinking that the Duet was strictly made for Macs... so I don't know if that would help!

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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by Good Guest » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:58 pm

rgorke wrote:
Good Guest wrote:Failing you don't have a sunset sound studio or Cary at your side.. :lol:

You can try a sm57 mic 2 feet dead center from the cone and run it thru a ANALOG class "A" mic preamp and then muck around with reverbs , eq.s (graphic and parametric) compressors etc on your studio software program. The best clips I ever heard are done with a class "A" mic pre.

Pan your guitar left and make a reverb channel for the right...25% of the left channel.
Did you mean 2 feet or 2 inches? I thought many folks get a good recording just off the grill cloth. There is a really good article in a recording magazine. I will dig it up and post it for everyone.

I also think that the interface you use make a big difference. StaN gets good results with the Presonis fp10. I think that's the one.

That's what I thought too..close micing right up against the grill....proximity effect and all that. I found out if you play your amp loud , that's just to close, too many highs , no lows and has me wondering if the mic distorts. If furthur away you seem to get it all the highs and lows. Yeah Stan has some great clips with that presonis class "A" micpre.

Yes dig up the article ..it drives me nuts trying to find a good spot for a mic. Just to finicky ..on the cone ...on the paper..edge of the paper ..edge of the cone...all producing differant tones ..much less the distance.

That's why I just place it 2 feet away and point in the general direction. :D ...at least it always sounds the same that way.

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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by WERNER1 » Thu Feb 18, 2010 2:12 am

Thanks for the replies guys!! :)

I've been recording in my Studio/Basement for years ... so I guess I'm not a total novice,.. but with anything I do, I realize that I have a LOT more to learn

Jerry :lol:

Cary - Thanks for all of the indepth info,.. I really appreciate it!,...

I'm running (and have been for quite a few years now..) Sonar 6PE and Adobe 3.0,.. and more plug-in's than you can shake a stick at (Waves Mercury and SSL stuff for starters..)..

But I'm more interested in the processing of the effects and the panning thing to get the "VH Vibe" as it were... Like the statement by Cary about panning Hard left and the verb hard right... how does that work exactly? or more specifically how do I set it up in my application - Sorry Cary,.. it looks like you've tried to lay that out pretty good for me,.. but,.. well :oops:

Rick

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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by leadguy » Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:17 am

I don't really know what Ed tone you are talking about.

Donn Landee seems to have mainly used 2 mics (SM57) on Ed's amp for most of the Templeman/Landee/Ed recordings.

For VH1 the 2 mics produced a brighter and darker tone according to their position then these 2 tracks were mixed by Ted Templeman and then re-amped through the Alto Lansing speaker in the Sunset Sound reverb room with a mic(s) at different positions picking up the reverb reflections.
This was done not once but twice, with one reverb re-amping producing the heavy reverb that was mainly panned to it's own channel and another reverb re-amping producing a lighter reverb mainly on the main channel.
Donn Landee set up the reverb room for the different reverbs.

Then there is Ted Templeman's final light EQing etc and final mastering.

I suppose some things can be emulated somewhat.


http://songwriter101.com/articles/27411_0_6_0_M/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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cary chilton

Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by cary chilton » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:00 am

leadguy wrote:I don't really know what Ed tone you are talking about.

Donn Landee seems to have mainly used 2 mics (SM57) on Ed's amp for most of the Templeman/Landee/Ed recordings.

For VH1 the 2 mics produced a brighter and darker tone according to their position then these 2 tracks were mixed by Ted Templeman and then re-amped through the Alto Lansing speaker in the Sunset Sound reverb room with a mic(s) at different positions picking up the reverb reflections.
This was done not once but twice, with one reverb re-amping producing the heavy reverb that was mainly panned to it's own channel and another reverb re-amping producing a lighter reverb mainly on the main channel.
Donn Landee set up the reverb room for the different reverbs.

Then there is Ted Templeman's final light EQing etc and final mastering.

I suppose some things can be emulated somewhat.


http://songwriter101.com/articles/27411_0_6_0_M/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I remember this article and thinking no wonder the snare sounded like ASS on VH1, sm57.... geeez Most engineers of a big label, would have a MUCH better mic for snare,like a neuman KM84!

In light of this, Landee would have used at least ONE sm57 on Ed cab, but 2? No way, not unless Landee was a total retard. For instance, the dream tone of Angus and Malcom's guitars on Back in Black were tracked with Large Diaphram Cardiod Condensors, not cheap sm57's....

Ed's always talked about his affinity for Sennheiser mics. I wouldn't be surprised if a 421 or a 409 or even a 441 was used as another close mic. Ed being " the driving force of VH," and the labels ticket to payday, I wouldn't be surprised if Ed's alleged mono track consisted of a 3rd room mic: a large diaphram condensor like a U47, U67 or M49 and of course the delay double aux channel and the infamous, EMT 140 plate. So that is 4-5 channels contributing to Ed's tone. What most people here don't get is the ART of great miking. Sunset has great sounding rooms and that is the important element. Someone who KNOWS that room and where to put Ed's amp and where the mics sound best -with a studio gopher running about to be damn sure of the mic position and it NEVER get moved or someone is fired. Ed magic marshall could possible sound just ok in a bad room, even if it is close mic'd only! The D120's are another element to mix. Where the D120's in the same room? Where they put through the EMT 140? What mic used? ( to tame the D120's highs or translate what is... ?) Lots of questions.

I don't think anyone here should worry about 2buss equalization as Leadguy brought up. Sure the producer might tweak song to song using a great stereo EQ, like a 30000USD Pultec! Something like that CAN'T sound bad.
Rockstah, doesn't use 2 buss EQ for his clips, he uses his ears and knows where to mic. 2 buss EQ is best as a Producers call to gently change the feel of a song. Most mixing engineers feel any engineer worth their salt gets the sounds right at tracking! If further EQ is needed it is sparingly used on a track or two or A LOT if it is an FX track. To have a habit of using EQ on the 2 buss is a common beginner problem.

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Re: How to actually "Record" the VH/Brown Sound???...

Post by leadguy » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:26 am

The 2 raw no processing straight off the mics master tape tracks are the 2 mics.

Some think that one mic is on a JBL and the other on a Celestion but I don't, because one mic is producing a darker lower volume tone which IMO is because of it's position on the Celestion and the other mic is producing a brighter higher volume tone which once again IMO is because of it's position on the Celestion cone.
Also the frequency spectrum of the GH tracks doesn't point to JBL's and sinasl1 has got real close to the ATBL frequency spectrum just using a single Celestion with I think a couple of mics in different positions and mixing the result together. and then some reverb and EQ http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=17343" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also Donn Landee seems to like to record with 2 mics in different positions on one speaker and then mixing to get a darker/brighter mix .
The JBL's were used for live shows and were not used in the studio IMO.
Ed might have been trying to emulate Landee's 2 different mic positions with the JBL's and Celestions for live stuff.

Alex's drums tend to sound the way they do because Donn Landee miced them from inside the drum for isolation.

http://www.vhlinks.com/pages/interviews/avh/dl1998.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by leadguy on Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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