Debate on Eddie's Plexi

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Jeremy1283
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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by Jeremy1283 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:48 pm

Strat78 wrote:
vh junkie wrote:
axeman wrote: So over all can you explain the chain signal, the end product/equipment to achieve this tone
I'll give it a crack for you until strat78 fills in the blanks.
The important points in my mind are:
1) The playing... Ed played hard to push the amp... that was the boost he liked best... and strat78 is doing it.
2) The guitars... while they might be giving strat78 some problems with tuning and such but he has gone a long way towards trying to duplicate the Destroyer and Strat used in the original recordings.
3) There's at least a MXR flanger, perhaps and EP-3... not sure about any EQs...
4) The Amp... the salient part of this thread!
George's 12xxx series... essentially stock...
820/.68uf on the first stage instead of 2.7k/.68uf... the .68uf is a phillips chicklet
820/.68uf on the second stage (I think!). The gist of the thread is that the .68uf was paralleled with a 330uf (but I don't think strat78 has this)
Stock low filtering

5) Power. Variaced down to 380v plates. This is taking the tube heaters down with the rest of the supply (Something Dave Friedman says is important). Bias is not cranked (50ma) as some have suggested, but rather commensurate with the plates (~40ma).
6) Quad o m75 20w scumbacks
7) See #1
I tried a 470uf paralleled with the .68uf on V2 and thought it muddied things up a bit so I went back to the .68uf and 820 resistor. So the amp is pretty much all Metro 68 12000series except for the chicklet/820 on V1 and the .0022 V1B bypass cap. Perhaps the .0022uf made the most difference. Oh, and the 47k instead of the 27k bias resistor. Oh, and 100k NFB with the bias tap on 4 ohms.
Both the Destroyer and the Strat are going out of tune because like vh junkie says, you have to really play hard ball with the right hand on those strings. It's not relaxing at all to play this stuff because it really puts you on the edge of your chair, drinking helps but then things get sloppy fast. :lol: Just the old Flanger and Ep-3 up front. I have my old 1979 JB pickup in the strat but I am waffling on whether it works or not. It has this mid range thump that at moments I think is THE VHI pickup and other moments where I can't stand the thing. The Scumbacks are heavenly!
Your clip with this spec is seriously sick man.

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by Strat78 » Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:46 pm

Was it the clip on page 34? Wow, interesting, I think that was the the stock Destroyer and also a strat with the old JB pickup. Those scumbacks sound pretty good too. If I had only backed off on the bright channel volume, I think there would have been less flub. Hmmm, I think I was closer to the tone back then. :palm: :lol:

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by Jeremy1283 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:26 am

Strat78 wrote:Was it the clip on page 34? Wow, interesting, I think that was the the stock Destroyer and also a strat with the old JB pickup. Those scumbacks sound pretty good too. If I had only backed off on the bright channel volume, I think there would have been less flub. Hmmm, I think I was closer to the tone back then. :palm: :lol:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... ID=9665912
This is the one. So vol 1 was cranked to ten? You said you had 100k ohm with 4 ohm tap. It sounds so close to me man.. You nailed it back then. :hide:
lol I hope to get this close.
is this the pup you used? http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/e ... _jb_model/

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by stef » Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:23 am

A 100k NFB resistor could be a stock oddball part :what: but I still think it was added later (in the 80's maybe even 90s) :scratch:
I agree with Jeremy, that clip sounds really really close and so good
I'm going back to 25k and all 4 tubes ASAP 8)

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by Jeremy1283 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:38 am

stef wrote:A 100k NFB resistor could be a stock oddball part :what: but I still think it was added later (in the 80's maybe even 90s) :scratch:
I agree with Jeremy, that clip sounds really really close and so good
I'm going back to 25k and all 4 tubes ASAP 8)
What is 25k stef?

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by rgorke » Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:57 pm

Jeremy1283 wrote:
stef wrote:A 100k NFB resistor could be a stock oddball part :what: but I still think it was added later (in the 80's maybe even 90s) :scratch:
I agree with Jeremy, that clip sounds really really close and so good
I'm going back to 25k and all 4 tubes ASAP 8)
What is 25k stef?
My guess...NFB resistor. Mine has been at 27k or 33K for a while. At 100k, the bass is too flubby. With the lower value resistor makes it as tight as....I'll let dirtycooter fill in the blank.
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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by YMI5150? » Tue Oct 14, 2014 2:41 pm

no perfect recipe for that value. depends on so many things

trannies
choke
fat cap
pup
strings

try 100k and know if its too flubby or gain structure is off, you know where to dial it out.

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by Jeremy1283 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 4:22 pm

YMI5150? wrote:no perfect recipe for that value. depends on so many things

trannies
choke
fat cap
pup
strings

try 100k and know if its too flubby or gain structure is off, you know where to dial it out.
i just lowered my preamp filtering to 15 u and put in the rifas for screen filtering. I upped the nfb to 100k and pulled the fat cap off. I have a 4700 bright cap on vol and a chicklet over the 820 ohm viA. Soundclips to come later this week.

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by Strat78 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:01 pm

YMI5150? wrote:no perfect recipe for that value. depends on so many things

trannies
choke
fat cap
pup
strings

try 100k and know if its too flubby or gain structure is off, you know where to dial it out.
Keven is right on the money here and it reminds me that this quest is never ending. :lol: I think the only way I could get the 100k NFB 4ohm tap to work was using a 2" 2.2k OT. But after going over those clips and comparing them to where I'm at these days, I still prefer my more recent clips. There is just more of that tight tennis racket thump and solidity. I want a combination of both actually, perhaps just daisy chaining these two specks is the way to go. :D

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by YMI5150? » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:18 pm

i run a 100k pot on my NFB circuit and am running said OT Phil described. its good for Fair Warning tone, super hairy and loose but not flubby. but dial that knob back and getting that tight NFB is where i usually sit and kills. Nice to have that flexibility. its the only gimmick I run on my builds.
getting back to the OP, it really cant be solved because there are so many dependent variables.

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by Jeremy1283 » Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:53 pm

YMI5150? wrote:i run a 100k pot on my NFB circuit and am running said OT Phil described. its good for Fair Warning tone, super hairy and loose but not flubby. but dial that knob back and getting that tight NFB is where i usually sit and kills. Nice to have that flexibility. its the only gimmick I run on my builds.
getting back to the OP, it really cant be solved because there are so many dependent variables.
As much as play with this value I should have it on a pot. I dont want to drill a hole in the chassis.

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by stef » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:26 pm

Jeremy1283 wrote:
stef wrote:A 100k NFB resistor could be a stock oddball part :what: but I still think it was added later (in the 80's maybe even 90s) :scratch:
I agree with Jeremy, that clip sounds really really close and so good
I'm going back to 25k and all 4 tubes ASAP 8)
What is 25k stef?
mid pot

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by jnew » Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:01 am

Jeremy1283 wrote:
Strat78 wrote:Was it the clip on page 34? Wow, interesting, I think that was the the stock Destroyer and also a strat with the old JB pickup. Those scumbacks sound pretty good too. If I had only backed off on the bright channel volume, I think there would have been less flub. Hmmm, I think I was closer to the tone back then. :palm: :lol:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... ID=9665912
This is the one. So vol 1 was cranked to ten? You said you had 100k ohm with 4 ohm tap. It sounds so close to me man.. You nailed it back then. :hide:
lol I hope to get this close.
is this the pup you used? http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/e ... _jb_model/
This clip is simply AMAZING sounding. I missed it before but glad it was brought back to the forefront. So very well done. :clap:
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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by Strat78 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:57 am

I've been going back through this thread and finding some good tidbits like this quote form Dave:
RACKSYSTEMS wrote:
"You guys are trying to get your amp to sound like the recorded tone. Well just to let you know a lot of eqing was done after the fact in mixing. Your chasing a ghost. If you are trying to do this there are many variables like the resistors you are using in the B+ line and in the circuit. The caps you are using is a huge thing. The .68 with the 470uf on v2 together sound different then just a 470uf. Just the makeup of the 2 kinds of caps changes the sound. Then lets look at wire yes that to sounds different from kind to kind { radically actually}. Then we have the tubes. You must have the real 6ca7s so they can hold up to the cooking bias. Etc etc etc. Oh wait what about the vintage celestions 25s begging for mercy. Oh then the brand of variac changes the sound also. Oh feedback resistor and what tap it was on in the amp. Huh look there also. Have fun"

Also, I'm amazed how close George's 12xxx kit brought us to the tone. Other than the 2.7k instead of 820ohn I think we were there. This is from 2010:
Strat78 wrote:
wjamflan wrote:Not being a techie, I've been following this thread with great interest from the sidelines. Is there someone who could sum up all the findings in layman's terms?

Was it simply a 12 series Plexi with a bass mod and later, a JMP OT? Any help would be greatly appreciated, b/c all of the cap values are like Greek to me. Thanks.

Bill
I think it is pretty much summed up in George's 68 kit. Here is a clip, guitar, Echoplex and 68 Metro 100w; volume on 8:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=9451688" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I'm not saying this is the exact tone (low E string snarl is not there yet), but allot of the earmarks are there for an amp that is not even broken in yet.
Also, what was up with Ben, I forgot why he deleted all his posts. I think we were all a little hotheaded back then, good times! :lol:

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Re: Debate on Eddie's Plexi

Post by mr.twistyneck » Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:27 pm

RACKSYSTEMS wrote:
"You guys are trying to get your amp to sound like the recorded tone. Well just to let you know a lot of eqing was done after the fact in mixing. Your chasing a ghost.
Yes. This. When I was futzing around with the secret pedal setup a couple of years ago, I VERY much noticed how the sound changes depending on how it is served to the listener.
1. Me in room, playing amp. Yay. It sounds awesome!
2. I record this and listen to it on headphones or speakers. Ick. Icky Ick Ickersteins.
3. I mix in the track with some VH backing tracks. Still Icky.
4. I send the tracks to TWANGGG and he EQ's my guitar track. Now it sounds good again, but it is different than what I was hearing in the room.

Trying to recreate the VH1 tone by using the tone off the album is frustrating - it's like trying to reassemble a puddle of water into an ice cube while leaving the puddle on a plate. It gets frozen but won't retain the original shape. I agree with #1 most important consideration being that tone is in the hands. A good player's playing normally overshadows the rig. A newb or a pro on an off day will make even the best of amps rock the turdacious factor.

I can listen to any of Strat78's clips and think "that's good enough for me". Actually beyond that, I was happy with the C E R R E M Mod, and I was happy with the secret pedal + eq, and I'm still happy with a dimed Superlead and a Hot Plate. I'm even happy with a dimed 5 Watt Class 5 head into one 25 watt Greenback (sometimes have to use a Hot Plate there as well b/c fussy soundguys). I think the next thing I'm going to get is a Kemper Profiling amp because A)it's like the Napster of amps. B) it doesn't weigh a lot C) I can go direct in a live situation D)I can still keep all my Marshalls (very important LOL) and lastly E)nobody - absolutely NOBODY gives one single solitary shit about what I play on stage except me - so I'm all for leaving the stacks and vintage goodies at home to prevent damage* to them and my spine.

Return you now to your regularly scheduled thread.

*damage meaning unintentional damage. damage caused by irresponsible modding by yours truly does not count, because that's fun and it keeps the amp repair shop gainfully employed. GAINfully. slow head nod.

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