Metropoulos Forum

something i noticed while listening to this clip:

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=9979355" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

at :29 you hear ed's tone on the C hit at the 5th fret on the D and G strings. listen to how it STINGS. it has a high mid voice that stings like a bee.

once i noticed that i listened again - all ed's accents in the ITO excerpt in rockstah's example STING HARD man. the examples that precede it in the clip by rockstah and ralle are great sounding tones no doubt. but this AGRESSIVE STING is missing and instead it's a little darker and not as aggressive.

is it simply a stronger picking technique or even a slight rake of the thumb that produces an emphasis, almost a harmonic on these accents?

or is it a quality found in the GAIN of the amp and/or signal chain?

that STING is almost like the quality of tone you get from a COCKED WAH. i'm not saying a cocked wah was used - no way - but i'm just saying that i think it's a FUNDAMENTAL difference in the tone ED is getting on this song and the tone rockstah and ralle are getting.

with their ears expertise and time - i bet they could hone in on this quality and get closer to the grail ITO tone.

anybody else hearin' it?

Its all in the attack and the player.

azazael wrote:Its all in the attack and the player.

in this case - i think the technique used by rockstah and ralle is close enough that IT MUST BE EQUIPMENT that would account for this much of a difference in tone. no matter how you hit it, if you're tone is not ALIVE enough it won't jump up and sting. listen to :29 and then compare. it is a BIG difference.

azazael wrote:Its all in the attack and the player.

I wish some day I had half the chops Mark does, but even at my very basic level of playing there is something I notice about holding the pick the way that Ed does that incorportes the nail of your middle finger and the side of your thumb that is crucial to gettin Ed's tone and feel. When you choke up on the pic and really dig in hard, the fingernail adds a shimmer and a sheen to the notes and the thumb adds subtle harmonic overtones...almost like a faint pinch harmonic that adds depth. I've been forcing myself to practice scales and warm up holding my pick like this every time before I play anything for the last few weeks now. I still hate it, but I'm determined to make the switch.

maybe STING = JBL D120's

you don't hear that STING on VH2.

I hear that throughout and its something i chase. is it an eq or even distortion box that makes it i wonder because it escapes me on where it comes from... for now anyway.

Yeah, I could hear that too, though it's soooo close now it's down to the really fine tuning. Awesome stuff! I messed around with the clip for a while and I believe the difference we're hearing is mainly down to mic placement at this point. That of course can make a huge difference so I'm really impressed with how close the tones are already.

Here's a clip where I took Marks stock clip and matched the eq to Eds. Probably be more fun to let you guys guess who's who, but Mark's on the left, Ed on the right. Just pan back and forth to compare. I think that "agressive sting" is pretty similar in both now. Also here's a shot of the spectrum with Mark in green, and Ed in red. Mark, or anybody else, can you maybe shed some light on what might be causing that sharp downward spike in the 8-9k region?

Who's who? You'll notice that its not just at 8-9k. All the major spike dropouts are green. From previous comparisons done this way before, Marks clips didn't show as smooth a line as Marks. I'd say Mark is the green. Post production eq'ing for Ed? Most likely.

rockstah wrote:I hear that throughout and its something i chase. is it an eq or even distortion box that makes it i wonder because it escapes me on where it comes from... for now anyway.

cool. if you find this piece it'll be ALL OVER!!

it is like it's touch response related - you know? it has to do with how the amp reacts when you slam it. it has to do with where and how the envelope opens up. it's a wicked response when you focus on it in that ito segment.

it seems like it's the envelope that plexis give by default - that "wha" or "aw" that opens up when you hit it and gives expression and "vocal like" quality. but it's exxagerated and made to be more aggressive. it has to do with that i think. it's getting control of that and manipulating it so that it happens in the same frequency range as the ITO amp and sig chain - and to the same EXTENT as it does in the ITO amp and signal chain.

that C at :29... it's like a whip crack!! it snaps and bites. that's the stuff right there.

here is my 79 metalface - plexi spec - kind of like that "EQ" or" distortion box" is turned off.
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=10003970" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mark

T.J.Fuller wrote:maybe STING = JBL D120's

you don't hear that STING on VH2.

Maybe people will soon start to realize this. Dave Friedman posted those clips of the Celestion and JBL ISO tracks. Unreal how people will not accept the obvious! I think everyone needs to keep the mystery going... just so they have something to do!

Part of it is striking the D and G strings hard enough to cause a little more clipping of the amp. You can hear it in Running With The Devil just before the second solo. In ITO, Ed lets those notes ring, Rockstah and Ralle add a little vibrato to that chord which kind of colors over the effect. Plus you guys play it way too slow! But still, there is that elusive straty thing going on as well. You can here the same effect on the D and G strings of Little Dreamer. We are really not there yet even though people say we are chasing our tails.

motrock wrote:Dave Friedman posted those clips of the Celestion and JBL ISO tracks.

I was also wondering why the RWTD clips seemed to have been forgotten. I messed around with the JBL thing for a loooong time and I never quite got a handle on it. Half the time I was convinced I was hearing 2 different mic placements instead of 2 different speaker types. Who named those files? Were they 100% positive about the JBLs?

A player can not get another players attack 100%.
I can not get Ralle or Rockstah's attack 100% or Ed's or Steve Vais or Angus's etc etc.
Plus there are a few things missing like the Variac and rebias, Echoplex and Phase.

The JBL's are not there in early 1978 which is after the VH1 recording date.
The JBL's are also not there around the earlier time of the Warner Brothers Demos (After Zero) around May/June 1977.
The raw clips Dave Friedman posted are 2 different mic position clips.
One mike up close and right on the centre of cone (the so called JBL) and the other mic angled and on the edge of the cone (so called Celestion).
It's really Donn Landee's way of micing.

The JBL's really came into it for the 1978 World Tour.

very late 1977



early 1978



May/June 1977

Some more clips need to be done with JBL's. I can see them in this Whiskey shot: