EVH Chassis Layout

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leadguy
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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by leadguy » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:02 am

If anyone is wondering about the Phase Inverter Capacitor

John Suhr (and Dave Friedman) say no 100pf on the PI and that ties in with stock Plexis close to Ed's serial number as well.

John Suhr

"The amp I saw WAS 12301 I wrote it down in my book on the schematic, if that hole was ever anything it was a Master.
The first stage was split cathode Most definitely NO 250pf treble cap, no on the 100pf across the PI plates and nobody has mention the alternate Marshall parts that made a difference.
Ed must be laughing his ass off if he is reading all this stuff, You should hear him play thru his line 6 ! Also how many of you play with a thin pick?
Damm I wish I had a good digital camera back then !"
"When your swinging, Swing some MORE" ~Monk

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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by mightymike » Wed Dec 22, 2010 3:28 pm

Unless you saw a chassis shot the day he recorded the tone you were after, your guess is as good as any of the "eyewitnesses" who saw it more than a decade later. As helpful and informative as they have been to the evolution of this place by providing pieces of the puzzle, they weren't there that day either. EVH's tone was different from year to year..The reason there are so many different accounts, was probably because his setup was different on those different days/amps.

With all the different claims and opinions, it's best to find out for yourself, and develop your tweaking skills
.
I found the difference in tone between the 100pf and the 47pf to be subtle at best. It's easy to try, along with all the different versions listed in this thread, as well as the numerous tweaks from builders in this forum, and others elsewhere. You can easily solder one side of each cap, and jumper each one by one to hear an a/b. Don't just take anyone's word, take all their words and try it all to see for yourself. That's what the most accomplished builders have done, and it's documented here. You can try the same jumper trick with different resisters, or the .68uf and 330uf caps the same way. Or even something in between. I usually try to use the largest one I can, while still retaining tightness on the bottom end. Which has never been a problem on a plexi, but other amps like a JTM45/50 you might have to go with a .68uf when trying to EVH spec the tone board. You can even switch in different screen values, and Cathode Split Switches. Try upping the 100k Plate resisters a little. You can even put a couple 250k pots there and dial them in to taste, then measure the result, and replace with same value resistors.

I've found that each thing doesn't do that much by itself, but have a cumulative effect when tried together, and then tweaking for that amp makes it perfect. Don't forget your Pickup/ Speaker/ Microphone(SM57) placement/Tubes 12ax7wa, and 6CA7 Sylvannia/ Mic Preamp (Something SM57 friendly),recording technique, and effects all have about as much effect (if not more) as most of these component tweaks. Yes it is a cumulative effect.

Also keep in mind,the recorded tone in EVH's glory days was much different than what you would hear standing in front of the amp thanks to Ted Templeton. The live tone was much brighter. You can hear it in the early live recording up until US Festival 83.
Because of this, some people (including me) like the 2" OT to thicken things up, even though EVH did use a 1.5" Dagnal OT.

FWIW, I would put the top 5 builder EVH recipes here at Metro against anyone else's, anywhere. I'm hearing better tone from the cream of the crop here, than I have from EVH since the 80's. The guys here through constant testing have sifted through all the accounts, and ARE leading the curve, and have reversed engineered the EVH puzzle as good as anyone. From the pick to the speaker, and then to recording. (Some damn fine playing too)

It didn't happen overnight, and some guys (Like Ralle) came into it way ahead in the game. Other guys like Mark have taken tweaking every claim to the nth degree. Yes we did get outside help too from (from everywhere we could find it) This forum has been, and still is the Manhattan Project for Vintage EVH tone.

Thank God for George for creating this place, and making this all possible. The man has the gift of simplifying the complex. His kits, with those easy instructions created some monster amp builders who might have never attempted to build if not for him. Now many of them can build a 12000 from memory. Just put the parts in a pile and watch em go. It's a beautiful thing.

Just my 2 cents, but If I was EVH, and I wanted to get my old tone back (that has been gone for over 2 decades). I would call some of the guys here.

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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by bobtec » Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:12 pm

I think mike is right,how come some unknown kid with no mony would have all these speical things,and all these tricks done techs to his amp,did everyone have hindsight that ed would be the second coming of christ.I saw VH in 1979 and live it did not sound like the LP,CD,DVD,tape ect.Mark A makes it sound like ed,sunset sound &don& tedI think the guys here@metroevh have put more time inthan ed did.you just got to play like him..... :dlr:

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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by mightymike » Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:52 pm

Yes Yes, and I forgot to add the biggest ingredient. You hands. Like the Story Goes: Ted Nugent tried his amp, and it sounded like Ted Nugent.

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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by leadguy » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:07 am

This Ed amp stuff from John Suhr and Dave Friedman took ages to come out and it didn't come out nice and easy either because there was a fair amount of reluctance to talk about it.
It's only recently come out.

The John Suhr and Dave Friedman accounts are pretty verified accounts.

John Suhr and Dave Friedman are basically saying the same thing about Ed's white knob Plexi.

Even though they are early 90s and later accounts of Ed's main amp, signs of previous changes or things that were never changed in the amp are there.
I for one take John Suhr's original solder joint info as being pretty accurate.

Some of the previous accounts of Ed's amp are wildly different and one wonders about how accurate they are and from where they came.
Ed only had a few amps of interest mainly the white knob Plexi and the Wooden Plexi and they are both split cathode designs which don't match at all with some previous accounts.
Apparently Ed's older amps are mostly split cathode amps from what Dave Friedman has said and he has seen them.

I won't name names but there were guys sitting on forums claiming to have known this or that about EVH and anybody can do that.

I don't class John Suhr or Dave Friedman as one of these so called EVH forum experts.

The thing I've seen is that a lot of forum members are likely to run with any rumour that is going and give it equal status to any half verified info creating even more confusion about anything to do with Ed.
"When your swinging, Swing some MORE" ~Monk

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mightymike
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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by mightymike » Fri Dec 24, 2010 8:59 am

This many come off as a little brash, but no insult is intended to anyone. Especially Dave and John who I have much respect for.

Call Me a Skeptic: To me nothing is verified until you have proof, or can see and hear for yourself. I'm not trying to put anyone one down or up, but anyone's account is just their word. I have respect for these guys knowledge, their workmanship is stellar, the sound they put out is awesome, but there is no real proof. So if you want to take their word, great. I just have the trust but verify approach, and long before the consensus was split cathode, but after the three accounts at the beginning of this thread (when many were saying it was shared), I and many others came to the opinion many years ago that it was split by trail and error. That went against the grain of what some well respected mentors had said, and is well documented.

That, along with Jose modded amps that have come across my bench, and other research and testing, Many of us confirmed years ago what these recent stories are now saying. So have many of the top builders in this forum, who have paid their dues, shared their findings openly, and should not be discounted.

[*] On a side note, I have tried some amps that could get the gain with just shared. One cheap RI 1959 rat's nest in particular that I cleaned up, and installed one of George's 2" Drakes in. So there are exceptions to the rule. Lesson learned.

I read the articles you're referring to. They were a fun read and all. I thoroughly enjoyed them, but where's the news flash? Anyone searching these forums could find the same info long ago. I just find it hilarious that now that the cat has already been out of the bag for a while, they now feel safe to share this info that is already available, but holding back that "one little piece that they can't reveal" for themselves so as to imply you still have to come to them for the real deal, when I already hear more authentic Vintage EVH tone elsewhere (imho).

Sorry that's the skeptic coming out again. Down boy down :bang: But if I had a nickle for every time someone has done this, I wouldn't have to work this week. There's guys that I have taught that do this, and it cracks me up when their stuff comes across my bench, and I see what all the hoopla was all about. (Don't worry, your secret is safe with me :wink: )

I'm probably gonna get flamed for this, but I learned long ago that the only thing I can trust is my soldering iron, and my ears. To me there was nothing new revealed at all. I'm sure it was great advertisement in these economic times, and I wish them both nothing but the best, and continued success.

Your right about one thing: There WAS a lot of confusion, but a lot has changed since for some of us. Years have gone by, 1000s of dollars spent, and lots of solder has been melted by Amp builders in these forums and elsewhere testing everything in the book.

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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by leadguy » Fri Dec 24, 2010 10:32 am

No it's not harsh at all.

Trust then verify is the way to go.

Nothing is written in stone about these things.

No News Flash really just an aligning of the planets type thing.
"When your swinging, Swing some MORE" ~Monk

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Re:

Post by RRJackson » Sat Apr 28, 2012 5:25 pm

Flames1950 wrote:Do you ever wonder if, like so many things Eddie doesn't like 'fessing up about, there is not just one "magic" Marshall?
This is something that should be put up in bold print on a big plexi sign wherever people discuss Marshalls and Edward Van Halen.

I spent a month on the road with Van Halen back in '98 and tried to get stories about the "Magic Marshall" out of Edward, but also out of Ed's guitar techs and other members of the road crew. I even broached the subject with Wolfie once while I was babysitting him, but he was too young to really know or care about Marshalls. In fact, I mostly asked him as a joke, like, "I've asked everyone else in the crew...you know anything, kid?"

The various stories I got about the old Rose Palace Marshall from people in the crew mostly involved Jose's mods, but frequently there was mention of more than one Marshall.

One night Ed was telling me about going back to the house where he grew up in Pasadena and he said he walked up, rang the bell and introduced himself to the current owners. He said the guy let him in and he went into his old bedroom and couldn't believe how small it was. He said that he used to have two Marshall 100-watt stacks that he kept in there and when he practiced he had them dimed. He went on to say that the sounds he got driving the amps flat-out were the moments that inspired him, but even though he could play that loud in his bedroom it frequently wasn't practical at gigs and that sent him all over town trying to figure out ways to get his sound under control. Ed has this thing he does...a way he talks...where he likes to compare something he does and thinks of as 'normal' to things other people think of as 'normal' and the chuckle is in how far removed the two are and that was one of those. He could play flat-out in a 10x10 room, but it wasn't practical in a big venue...pause...drum-hit. And then he made some comment about how a lot of times when Van Halen tours there's more wattage pointed at the band than there is at the audience. There's nothing specific from that conversation about gear, but it made me think at the time that I'd been right about a fair amount of Ed's tinkering being in search of dimed Marshall sounds at stage volumes that worked when you weren't playing the US Festival.

One conversation I had with a crew member was about Jose having a shop set up at 5150 for a while. Now, it's worth pointing out that all this should be taken with a grain of salt because it may well be the kind of fish tales the crew tell to guitar nerds who spend too much time asking about Edward's gear, but it seemed earnest enough at the time and we'd been drinking vodka all night long when it came up (drinking too much with someone always instills a feeling of camaraderie in me, though sometimes it's misplaced). Anyway, the story goes that Ed had various Jose-modded amps that he used for various things and he was really looking for a Jose Swiss Army Amp to market as an Edward Van Halen standard-issue sidearm. So he set Jose up with a workshop at 5150 and Jose set up a schedule and started coming up there to work on prototypes, but according to this individual Jose would come up there, drink a lot of beer and basically have a good time on Ed's dime. This was at a time when that was apparently a thing often done by many close to Ed. One guitar tech of Ed's (who I won't mention by name) apparently started introducing himself at Spago as a member of the Van Halen family and putting meals and drinks on the Van Halen tab. Anyway, the way the story went when it was related to me is that Ed and Al cleaned house one weekend and the guitar tech fled to Minneapolis (in fear of bodily harm, apparently) where he started working for Prince, Jose's shop got packed up and the Jose EVH Project was shelved and several other hangers-on found that their welcome had worn out.

Anyway, that's basically all I can contribute, but reading these threads I thought it might be interesting to some. More likely I've just spread more misinformation out there, but doing damage wasn't my intent. BTW, I told some of this to someone years ago and found part of it posted online in a description of Ed's gear that said the stuff about the Jose' mods came from "Edward Van Halen's friend, Rob Jackson.' Which is kinda looney. I ran into Ed about six months after that tour and he didn't seem to remember me. These guys meet thousands of people a year and I'm not even all that memorable to people who've known me for decades. Heh...so yeah, don't take any of this as gospel from a 'friend' of Ed's. I'm just some dweeb who got to hang out for a while. It was a ton of fun and I'll always feel like the luckiest fan in the world, but that's all I am. I wrote a story about it called 'Diving Down Under' that Jeff ran in an issue of 'The Inside' back when that magazine was still around. Anyway, just my two cents and not from anyone of note, really. Just some guy who's been a Van Halen fan for most of his life.

-Rob

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Re: Re:

Post by rgorke » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:56 am

RRJackson wrote:
Flames1950 wrote:Do you ever wonder if, like so many things Eddie doesn't like 'fessing up about, there is not just one "magic" Marshall?
This is something that should be put up in bold print on a big plexi sign wherever people discuss Marshalls and Edward Van Halen.

I spent a month on the road with Van Halen back in '98 and tried to get stories about the "Magic Marshall" out of Edward, but also out of Ed's guitar techs and other members of the road crew. I even broached the subject with Wolfie once while I was babysitting him, but he was too young to really know or care about Marshalls. In fact, I mostly asked him as a joke, like, "I've asked everyone else in the crew...you know anything, kid?"

The various stories I got about the old Rose Palace Marshall from people in the crew mostly involved Jose's mods, but frequently there was mention of more than one Marshall.

One night Ed was telling me about going back to the house where he grew up in Pasadena and he said he walked up, rang the bell and introduced himself to the current owners. He said the guy let him in and he went into his old bedroom and couldn't believe how small it was. He said that he used to have two Marshall 100-watt stacks that he kept in there and when he practiced he had them dimed. He went on to say that the sounds he got driving the amps flat-out were the moments that inspired him, but even though he could play that loud in his bedroom it frequently wasn't practical at gigs and that sent him all over town trying to figure out ways to get his sound under control. Ed has this thing he does...a way he talks...where he likes to compare something he does and thinks of as 'normal' to things other people think of as 'normal' and the chuckle is in how far removed the two are and that was one of those. He could play flat-out in a 10x10 room, but it wasn't practical in a big venue...pause...drum-hit. And then he made some comment about how a lot of times when Van Halen tours there's more wattage pointed at the band than there is at the audience. There's nothing specific from that conversation about gear, but it made me think at the time that I'd been right about a fair amount of Ed's tinkering being in search of dimed Marshall sounds at stage volumes that worked when you weren't playing the US Festival.

One conversation I had with a crew member was about Jose having a shop set up at 5150 for a while. Now, it's worth pointing out that all this should be taken with a grain of salt because it may well be the kind of fish tales the crew tell to guitar nerds who spend too much time asking about Edward's gear, but it seemed earnest enough at the time and we'd been drinking vodka all night long when it came up (drinking too much with someone always instills a feeling of camaraderie in me, though sometimes it's misplaced). Anyway, the story goes that Ed had various Jose-modded amps that he used for various things and he was really looking for a Jose Swiss Army Amp to market as an Edward Van Halen standard-issue sidearm. So he set Jose up with a workshop at 5150 and Jose set up a schedule and started coming up there to work on prototypes, but according to this individual Jose would come up there, drink a lot of beer and basically have a good time on Ed's dime. This was at a time when that was apparently a thing often done by many close to Ed. One guitar tech of Ed's (who I won't mention by name) apparently started introducing himself at Spago as a member of the Van Halen family and putting meals and drinks on the Van Halen tab. Anyway, the way the story went when it was related to me is that Ed and Al cleaned house one weekend and the guitar tech fled to Minneapolis (in fear of bodily harm, apparently) where he started working for Prince, Jose's shop got packed up and the Jose EVH Project was shelved and several other hangers-on found that their welcome had worn out.

Anyway, that's basically all I can contribute, but reading these threads I thought it might be interesting to some. More likely I've just spread more misinformation out there, but doing damage wasn't my intent. BTW, I told some of this to someone years ago and found part of it posted online in a description of Ed's gear that said the stuff about the Jose' mods came from "Edward Van Halen's friend, Rob Jackson.' Which is kinda looney. I ran into Ed about six months after that tour and he didn't seem to remember me. These guys meet thousands of people a year and I'm not even all that memorable to people who've known me for decades. Heh...so yeah, don't take any of this as gospel from a 'friend' of Ed's. I'm just some dweeb who got to hang out for a while. It was a ton of fun and I'll always feel like the luckiest fan in the world, but that's all I am. I wrote a story about it called 'Diving Down Under' that Jeff ran in an issue of 'The Inside' back when that magazine was still around. Anyway, just my two cents and not from anyone of note, really. Just some guy who's been a Van Halen fan for most of his life.

-Rob
Rob,

Thanks for contributing your story. Pretty cool to be able to hang out and at least talk to the people on the inside. Now we know where Ed's quote on 2 1/2 men came from, "Two Marshall Stacks and a 10x10 room." Ok, that was bad but it is early Sunday morning and I am up with a sick kid.

What I gleen from your story is that Ed originally liked the tone of a dimed plexi and tried to get that tone for his gigs.

Did you ever ask what the little knob was on the back of the Marshall in the VH2 studio pictures?

Welcome aboard.

Roger
"If you make a mistake, do it twice and smile and let people think you meant it." Jan Van Halen.

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Re: Re:

Post by RRJackson » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:56 am

rgorke wrote: Rob,

Thanks for contributing your story. Pretty cool to be able to hang out and at least talk to the people on the inside. Now we know where Ed's quote on 2 1/2 men came from, "Two Marshall Stacks and a 10x10 room." Ok, that was bad but it is early Sunday morning and I am up with a sick kid.

What I gleen from your story is that Ed originally liked the tone of a dimed plexi and tried to get that tone for his gigs.

Did you ever ask what the little knob was on the back of the Marshall in the VH2 studio pictures?

Welcome aboard.

Roger
I had never seen a photo of the back of the Plexi before I went out on that tour. More than one person on the tour told me that Ed's old Plexi had a Jose mod that allowed it to get higher gain sounds, but nobody was specific about how it was done.

BTW, I should mention that Edward's alleged reaction to Jose may or may not have had any basis in reality. When him and Al sent a bunch of people packing Jose may well have suffered from guilt by association. Those guys are a little erratic. I love Ed's playing, but working for him has got to be one of the most frustrating gigs on the planet. Every night his tech was sitting in the hotel room pulling out pickups or swapping necks because Edward had a feeling that night about the sound or feel of this or that guitar. A lot of times it seemed like the guitar sounded and felt exactly the same the next night when it got the thumbs-up, but maybe Ed senses a disturbance in the Force that I can't feel. Sometimes it's legit stuff, obviously. Sometimes it's practical stuff. I remember him tripping on his cable one night early in the tour because he'd been used to using a wireless and that was his first tour using cables again, so Keegan was up striping Ed's cables by wrapping lengths of fluorescent tape around them that night. In fact, here's a photo of me with one of Ed's pickups while his one of his Wolfgangs was being refitted.

Image

BTW, while I'm at it, here's a shot from a Budokan sound check.

Image

Anyway, Jose may have been given a bum rap. Or it may not have happened at all, but that's the story I got. I felt like I've been soaking up so much information reading these threads that I should kick a little something back into the community, even if it's just a story or two. I wish I could contribute more.

-Rob

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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by vanhalen5150 » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:14 am

Cool stuff Rob! Take what most of us say and do with amps here with a grain of salt. Some of us are really pushing the envelope with what we try at times. But that's really the only way we find out what doesn't work.
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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by RRJackson » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:29 am

vanhalen5150 wrote:Cool stuff Rob! Take what most of us say and do with amps here with a grain of salt. Some of us are really pushing the envelope with what we try at times. But that's really the only way we find out what doesn't work.
Well, that's really the beauty of what you've got going on here. It's like a tone lab and some of you don't seem to shy away from even the most fringe mods. That's exactly the environment where the cool stuff surfaces. I've been reading the forums for a few months now and I keep finding old threads where amazing things have surfaced. Good stuff.

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Re: Re:

Post by Rich_D » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:42 pm

RRJackson wrote:Keegan was up striping Ed's cables by wrapping lengths of fluorescent tape around them that night.
Dude I have been wondering about that cable ever since. Awesome, thanks!
Interpretation?! I thought I was playing it right!

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Re: Re:

Post by RRJackson » Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:21 pm

Rich_D wrote:
RRJackson wrote:Keegan was up striping Ed's cables by wrapping lengths of fluorescent tape around them that night.
Dude I have been wondering about that cable ever since. Awesome, thanks!
Yeah, Ed went running across the stage, got his feet tangled up in the cable and crashed into one of his 4 x 12" cabs. After the show he told me to check out his knee and he had a big triangular indentation in his kneecap. I'm like, "Should you have that looked at?" He just shrugged. He said, "You should have seen what used to happen to my knees when I'd slide across the stage." I said, "Yeah, but at least you used to wear pads!" He laughed and said, "Those things were never where they were supposed to be. They'd slide up or down and I'd still tear up my knees."

Anyway, yeah...after that Keegan took red tape and yellow tape and made two cables for him, one with red stripes and one with yellow stripes. And then he also played around with that XLR jack thingee that he was using to take tension off the cable because he'd catch the cable on his pedalboard or something as he started to run and he'd jerk the jack right out of the guitar. Or (possibly worse) strain the cable/jack connection and the cable would start cutting out. If I remember right he was using George L coax and that stuff isn't very bend-y and there isn't a lot of give. A good jerk on it and you just have to cut it down a little and put the jack back on. Of course back in the 70's I used to use those coiled cables that had a ton of give, but they almost always had terrible cold solder joints and they'd start cutting in and out after a week or so. BTW, I'm a huge fan of Neutrik locking 1/4" jacks, but that's another story.

You can see the cables in this photo of Ed's pedalboard that I took in Japan:

Image

Connector porn, just because:
Image

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Re: EVH Chassis Layout

Post by RRJackson » Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:02 pm

BTW, while I was raving about Neutrik locking 1/4" jacks a thought occurred to me. An analogy, really.

Back in the early days of motion pictures they used nitrate film stock, which was extremely flammable and prone to rapid degradation. By 1950 it had been replaced by Acetate stocks which were much more stable, less prone to breaking during capture or projection and not nearly as flammable. Not content with that development Kodak rolled out a polyester-based film in the mid-50's called Estar. They took it to trade shows and wrapped a loop of it around a trailer hitch and used it to tow an Airstream trailer across a stage to show how durable it was. Amazing product. Almost impossible to break. And so when you got Estar jammed in the gears of a camera it didn't break, but the camera would essentially implode. Once during a high-speed run people went to the hospital with bits of a Mitchell high-speed camera lodged in their extremities.

So yeah, as nice as the Neutrik jacks are there are probably times when it's better for the plug to be jerked out of the amp than to have the amp dragged away by the cable. :lol:

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