How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

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Ralle
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How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:55 am

I mean really turned it inside out... I built my head into those speqs... and I mean EXACTLY ( at least to what's been said ) as they say it was; sharerd cathod ( 330u/820-1k ), .022u for both chanels, 56k/250pF tonestack, .1u PI couplings, 330pF mixer brightcap, .68u/820-1k V2, 27k/16 ohm NFB ( Plaap/ ****** says 47k ), .1u for precense, and a 500pF brightcap over the lead volume... I know both Plaap and ****** states there's a 330u cap in v2, but that was post VH1 ( I think )... I belive there was a .68 cap in there. Allso the filterings; 2x16u for the preamp, a single 32u for the PI, 16u ( two 32's in serie for the screens ), and 50u ( two 100's in serie ) for the mains.
Now, all that talk about the amp being cranked just can't be true with those speqs... there's no way, there is way too much flubbyness going on... BUT if you turn the volume down to something around 1 a clock, thing starts to to happen... I have played these speqs for a while now, and I have to say I have NEVER been closer ( to my ears that is ). One other very important thing is how he ( again as I think ) used the amp/amps; It's been said a lot that he slaved the amp into another head, and that that head would be the stripped head that's been seen i various pics... We know he used the 2003 Master PA in the reccordings of the first album, alltgough not many seam to rekognize that way as an important issue... But look what's REALLY happening there, look at the schem of that 2003 amp; it has a tone controll in the input, it has a pre eq master, no brightcap anywhere, it has a regular Marshall powerstage... I mean COME ON... what's not to like... Now, look at the the famous 12301 amp, with the white pot in the back, wich been said to be a master of some kind... What ever master it could have been, I belive it was lokated PRE eq, or as the Jose master, right there in between... doesn't really matter wich one, as long as it's not a standard master ala 2203...
What I'm trying to say here is that he used the 12301 head, the 2003 PA head or any other amp, really, as amp nr 2, and that the Plaap/ ****** amp was his main head...

Any thoughts on that?
Like I said, I have never been closer to the sound as I am now, with those speqs

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Ralle
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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:56 am

??? is he still banned?

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Ralle
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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:10 am

I forgot to mention the PI brightcap; 100pF :roll:

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Tazin » Sun Dec 18, 2016 6:16 pm

Probably not the reply you were hoping for but...
I've heard some 50w Bass spec amps do a good rendition of the VH1 tone but most tend to be too flubby or wooly sounding.
It is interesting that there are two camps when it comes to the specs of 12301; one camp being the Bass spec guys ChrisMerren & Plaap, and the other being the Lead spec guys Soldano, Cameron, Suhr, and Friedman. The specs ChrisMerren stated are actually very close to what he altered his own personal late '67 Super Lead too and I believe this to be the bases of his specs and not actually Ed's amp. This Plaap guy supposedly talked to Peter Van Wheelden; the Dutch tech who worked on Ed's amp, and that's were he acquired the amps specs from, but his specs were scrutinized by Chris himself since they were almost verbatim to what Chris had written years earlier which led to suspicion. To the best of my knowledge Peter Van Wheelden has never publicly stated the specs of the amp. What I do know is that the specs stated by ChrisMerren & Plaap have a somewhat easily identified flaw in that the topside mount PI cap on Ed's amp is a 50uF+50uF and not a single element 32uF cap. The 32uF caps were either smaller in diameter or the same diameter (1-3/8") but shorter. Pictures of Ed's amp show that the PI cap was the same one from 1978 thru when Friedman replaced it recently.
On the other side of the coin you've got the Lead spec camp in which the individual accounts of the amp seem rather consistant which makes one believe that all parties envolved seen the same amp. Friedman seems like a pretty straight shooter kinda guy so I think his info is reliable. Besides, Friedman & Suhr both cashed in a little by making there own version of the amp which are nearly identical to one another. Also you've got the preamp circuit pictures that Cameron posted a while back in which Friedman basically confirmed to be the same amp he worked on.

The 2003 Master PA and amp slaving...Not sure where you heard about a 2003 Master PA being used in the recording of the first album? I know Ed does/did own one but I think he may have used it much later in his career. Anyhow, from the pictures I have seen from the club days through the first tour there doesn't appear to be any direct evidence of Ed using a slave setup or reamping. The larger venues show daisy-chaining of amps and the small gigs show only one amp being used. Besides, after July '78 Ed didn't use 12301 for the remainder of the tour rather he used more new Marshall Super Leads (1978's) with out a variac & other amps like Musicman's and still acquired a tone very similar to the first half of the tour.

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Ralle
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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:34 pm

Tazin wrote:Probably not the reply you were hoping for but...
I've heard some 50w Bass spec amps do a good rendition of the VH1 tone but most tend to be too flubby or wooly sounding.
It is interesting that there are two camps when it comes to the specs of 12301; one camp being the Bass spec guys ChrisMerren & Plaap, and the other being the Lead spec guys Soldano, Cameron, Suhr, and Friedman. The specs ChrisMerren stated are actually very close to what he altered his own personal late '67 Super Lead too and I believe this to be the bases of his specs and not actually Ed's amp. This Plaap guy supposedly talked to Peter Van Wheelden; the Dutch tech who worked on Ed's amp, and that's were he acquired the amps specs from, but his specs were scrutinized by Chris himself since they were almost verbatim to what Chris had written years earlier which led to suspicion. To the best of my knowledge Peter Van Wheelden has never publicly stated the specs of the amp. What I do know is that the specs stated by ChrisMerren & Plaap have a somewhat easily identified flaw in that the topside mount PI cap on Ed's amp is a 50uF+50uF and not a single element 32uF cap. The 32uF caps were either smaller in diameter or the same diameter (1-3/8") but shorter. Pictures of Ed's amp show that the PI cap was the same one from 1978 thru when Friedman replaced it recently.
On the other side of the coin you've got the Lead spec camp in which the individual accounts of the amp seem rather consistant which makes one believe that all parties envolved seen the same amp. Friedman seems like a pretty straight shooter kinda guy so I think his info is reliable. Besides, Friedman & Suhr both cashed in a little by making there own version of the amp which are nearly identical to one another. Also you've got the preamp circuit pictures that Cameron posted a while back in which Friedman basically confirmed to be the same amp he worked on.

The 2003 Master PA and amp slaving...Not sure where you heard about a 2003 Master PA being used in the recording of the first album? I know Ed does/did own one but I think he may have used it much later in his career. Anyhow, from the pictures I have seen from the club days through the first tour there doesn't appear to be any direct evidence of Ed using a slave setup or reamping. The larger venues show daisy-chaining of amps and the small gigs show only one amp being used. Besides, after July '78 Ed didn't use 12301 for the remainder of the tour rather he used more new Marshall Super Leads (1978's) with out a variac & other amps like Musicman's and still acquired a tone very similar to the first half of the tour.
Well, I wasn't expecting everyone to agree with me, I mean, I've been in both "camps" my self, so to speak. But I haven't actually been digging into the Plaap/C****** speqs like this. It has allways been with the volume knob cranked, and why not... everybody here and eaven Ed states that the amp was cranked... and I'm sure one of the amps where, can't say wich one or how many... and I'm not going to argue on that point simply cause I don't really know...
I can say this; I have NOT heard anyone getting the sound with the ( I'm going to call it... ) Friedman speqs ( just so everyone knows what I mean )... close, oh so close... but not THE sound, that includes myself. There has allways been something about the texture of the sound that has allway bugged me... It has been too thick in the mids with the 33k500pF tonestack, wich leads to trying to cut somewhere else in the chain. To thin with 2.2nF in the lead, and offcours too flubby with 22nF ine that same spot. I've discovered that the amount of gain isn't as one thinks... much less, actually. But it has to be in the right freqs, so it's very natural to assume that the Friedman speq would be the one that fits most perfect... but it doesn't!!! I don't think I'm alone thinking like that...
It started off with me changing to the 56/250 tonestack for the thickness in the mids, and from there I went to sharered cathod... Right there I thought it got too flubby, eaven with 2.2nF lead coupling... so going to 22nF would be insain, right... But I hooked up a brightcap over the volume knob, turned it down to ca 1 aclock ( mind you I'm still keeping the .68u cap in v2, and 47k/16 ohm NFB ). Here something happens... can't explain how, but it got to the closest I've EVER been. I looked over the speqs i now had, and saw the Plaap speqs before my eyes... so I went all the way, with all of it. I don't care what is said and not said about what amps being used or not...
The Plaap speqs is far closer than the Friedman speqs. I'm sure Ed did use the 12301 head, but I'm allso convinced that the Plaap version is absoloutly used in the first album. It simply don't sound the same as Ed with any other speq.
Speaking of the seccond amp; There's a pic with the bassplayer from Extreem ( ??? ) together with Ed's supossed rig used on the first album; a cab with the PA amp, and his Marshall on top. That guy says Ed said he used it for slaving on the first album... Proof or not, I had to test that, so I converted my other head I had laying around ( a butchered -69 100w superlead with all 2x50u cans ) into a PA head, the one with 4 input channels. With a volume on the linebox, and having a tonecontroll on each input channel... plus a pre eq master... That was it for me... you can get the rest of the missing gain you don't get from the first head, in the PA head, plus you can controll the eq in a way that just isn't possible with a regular seccond amp. So why can I say the 1203 with the white knob in the back could have been the seccond amp as well as the PA? Because of the white knob... No one REALLY knows what config it has, but it's location speaks for an pre eq master of somekind... Again, I'm not saying I know that for a fact, cause I don't... BUT IT FITS... better that any other speq I have seen hear on Metro... and I've been here for quite som time...

Lokking at it from a different perspective; Really... cranking a Marshall... it just wasn't done back in the day... You can hear the on the Gene simmons tapes... he "used" the amp as it's suppose to be used... both volume, and eq... not to mention the precense pot...
This is taking up way to much space here, so I'll just say, try it for your selfes an listen to it with your own ears...
Actually that's what I wanted to see, if anyone else thought of this, and tryied... :wink:

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by echoplexi1974 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:27 pm

Ralle, I've been questioning the Friedman spec too so all of this speculation on 12301 has got me rethinking things again... :scratch: I can't wait to hear a clip. I've got my 68 out of the shell again to try some of these ideas.

Tazin, you put 12301 into great perspective. I never thought of the two camps that way and it makes sense. I think there were two versions of this amp throughout the years. If you read some of Mark Cameron posts on this forum, he believes that amp has gone through a few changes over the years too.

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Tazin » Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:59 pm

Ralle, I know that you've tried just about every variation circuit-wise in your sound clips over the years and I must say that they ALL sound great...I even saved some of them on a hard drive. I hear what your saying about trying to find the right circuit which captures all the correct dynamics associated Ed's early tone. You've got a keen sense of hearing when it comes to dialing in amp circuits so I believe you when you say a tweaked Bass spec can get you extremely close to Ed's early tone.
When I tried a modified Bass spec some time ago I couldn't get the bass character correct. It was always too boomy and round sounding. The other problem was everything became blurry sounding (or too thick) when the volume got up around 7 or 8. Perhaps it was from me using a 32uF+32uF preamp cap instead of a 16uF+16uF?

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:09 am

Maybe... I had to go all the way with this speq... 2x16, 330pF, not least the 100pF in the PI... I eaven went on bit further than what Plaap/C****** says, they didin't mention anything about the PI couplings so I assumed it would be 22nF, but no... 100nF makes it easier to gett rid of that flubbyness ( strange? ) by being able to lower the volume eaven more and still keep some of the girt... It does get flubby when I pass somewhere around 3 aclock, but not in the same manner as with the regular bass speqs... 330pF is a great flubby cutter, and so is the preamp filterings ( 16u )...
I do have clips, so I'll post them asap... :wink:

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by echoplexi1974 » Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:53 am

Ralle, who important is the PA amp? Can the Plaap spec head stand on it's own?

Did you wire up your 1969 Marshall to the Marshall PA specs by using a certain schematic? Was there a lot to change?
Thanks!

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Ralle
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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:48 pm

echoplexi1974 wrote:Ralle, who important is the PA amp? Can the Plaap spec head stand on it's own?

Did you wire up your 1969 Marshall to the Marshall PA specs by using a certain schematic? Was there a lot to change?
Thanks!
Any seccond amp is vital for Ed's sound... But yes it can stand on it's own, only with less gain... it's the core of the sound that has to be prioraty nr 1. My experiance is you get a bit more gain in the highs with the PA amp. Look, I think he used both the Plaap amp, the Friedman amp and the PA amp. I think he used the Plaap head as nr 1, but he could just as well used the Friedman amp as nr1 too... maybe he switched from time to time... That he used the PA for the first album is without any doubt... Further, if he had both Plaap and Friedman slaved together, and reamped them in to the PA, it could be one posibillity... it could make sence... I can say this much; the Plaap amp was nr 1 on the album... that's for sure... there's now way to get that twang with the Friedman amp.
Maybe I should mention, it been said there was a 330u cap in v2... I think that was swapped from a .68u caus that is what I have in and it makes the amp really scream...

Yes I rebuilt the -69 amp into a PA. Since tha PA basiclly comes from a bass ( 1992 speq ) circut, some changes had to be done. The schematic can be found in Marshall Amp arcives, look for Marshall Master PA 2003. :wink:

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by mightymike » Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:04 pm

Been using the Plaap/M err en spec for over a decade on several 10000 and 12000 builds. I crank the amp without flubbyness. Just don't put the bass higher than 2. Pretty much everything else on 10. Except presence to taste. The clip in my signature is that spec. With a JB pickup.

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Ralle
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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:15 am

There ya go... Nice... it actually is much more Ed's signature in the tone... Again, I think he used the amp differently from time to time... Thanx for tuning in... Have you tried that with slaving any amp?

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:56 am

Think it's best I post a clip... Nr1 ( Plaap speqs ) slaved into Nr2 (Friedman speqs, with the jose master)...Volume on around 1 aclock ( 5nF brightcap on the volume ), no bass, full precense, mids and treble.
The settings on Nr2 is opptional since all I could do at home was in bedroom levels... the jose master at the very lowest I could have... the input on Nr2 was at around 9 aclock... the higher yoy get there, the more gain you get in Nr2... Something to consider...
https://soundcloud.com/rallep/jamies-crying-test

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by echoplexi1974 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 1:18 pm

Whoa, that's fricken awesome! That's it, I'm trying these specs!

Best clip I've heard here in a long, long time..... :vh: :worthy:

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Re: How many have tried the Plaap/****** speq?

Post by Ralle » Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:45 pm

After trying and testing I've come to the conclusion that there probably weren't any brightcap on the mixer in Nr2... That would fit the PA amp, but then again, if the Friedman amp was used on the first album, maybe that small change was the lifting of the 470k/500pF brightcap... This would only fit if having the amp running as Nr2, plus hitting it in the normal channel. The leadvolume on Nr2 is off ( probably... )
Here'e another clip... just getting started... :wink:
https://soundcloud.com/rallep/atomic-punk-test

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