Jimmy Page Tone

flemingmras · Post by **flemingmras** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 2:44 pm

You know, I've heard all the rumors circulating about Jimmy Page's tone live, like about how he had his Super Leads modded to put out 200 watts by installing KT88s and how he really was using a Supro amp that was sitting behind his Marshalls, and I have to say that is bullshit.

First off, these heads put out 150 with EL34s at full crank. So that 200 watts...is that "clean" power or distorted power? They never specify that.

However, with my Metro Plexi...with JJ E34Ls...we played a live gig and recorded it with a video camera. And we did Led Zeppelin's Rock n' Roll, but we did The Song Remains The Same version where they open with Rock N Roll, then do the little snippet of Bring It On Home and run that into Black Dog. And as I'm listening to that and Black Dog, I could not believe how dead on the tone sounded! With EL34s, a 2004 Les Paul with EMG pickups!!! Now I know Jimmy Page didn't use EMGs, but I was able to get THE exact tone with a Les Paul straight in with EMGs into a Metro Plexi!

I'll post sound clips in a couple of days so you guys can hear it for yourself. Another thing that surprised me when I listened to the cover of Rock Candy we did at that gig, with a '69 era Super Lead clone I was also getting some Zakk Wylde sounding false harmonics with an EMG85 in the bridge position of my Les Paul as well.

It's kinda funny cause everyone that has told me that EMGs have no character and they color the natural sound of your guitar and all that shit...my Les Pauls still sound like a Les Paul. When I play through my amp, you can definitely tell I'm playing a Les Paul, it's just a lot hotter than the stock passive pickups which helps me push the front end of my amp a little harder. Other than that, they're great fuckin' pickups!

Jon

flemingmras · Post by **flemingmras** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:44 am

Here's a link to the sound clip for proof on this:

http://www.wildercyde.com/soundclips/blackdog.mp3

That's Spinal Tap 2(the survivor), my main plexi:

All knobs dimed except Bass and Normal volume are at 12:00.

Power Brake at 7th click from full off(no sound)

1973 Marshall straight cab with original G12H-30 Greenbacks 014 cones(bass version)

2004 Gibson Les Paul Standard w/EMG pickups (81 Neck 85 Bridge)

Jon

GIBSON Les Paul · Post by **GIBSON Les Paul** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:10 am

I wouldnt say dead on, but that sure is close! The laughing in the middle was interesting...

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:35 am

It sounded very Zep like Jon but it still doesnt disprove anything for me. Especially the Supro thing. Listen to I. There isnt a Marshall to be heard on that album. But as far as live tone I think we sometimes make too much of the differences in the amp of things like tubes. Do guitar players hear a huge difference in their amps, yes. But the big picture is, after everythings recorded and the room and recording is taken into consideration, its hard to tell the difference which tubes people are using in an amp. People think they can. Im sure anyone whos spent time in a studio can agree, the way a cab is mic'd will change the tone more drastically. But the fact that Page was said to use 88s, even if it was fact, doesnt really shock me someone could still nail the sound with EL34s. The difference in tubes is much more apparent when playing the amp then listening back to a recording. I realized that when I listen to all the guys making clips at univalve.net forums where they all would make exacting clips of the UV with every type of tube they had and while I listen like, wow I like that tube most, in the grand scheme of things, it still was the same sound with only a slightly different character. Hearing that stuff about Pages rig, I dont really doubt nor take it as an absolute, but I wouldnt feel weird at all about using 34s to get his sound if it worked better and I thought I was closer even if I knew for fact he did use 88s.

flemingmras · Post by **flemingmras** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:37 am

GIBSON Les Paul wrote:I wouldnt say dead on, but that sure is close! The laughing in the middle was interesting...

Yeah that would be the "band wives". The bass player's girlfriend was the one videotaping that whole thing.

And Dan, yes you are correct about the tubes. In George's shop after I built the head in that recording we were playing on it on a Power Brake(which is what sold me on one) and we kept blowing the Winged C EL34s I was using in it due to a wiring fault in the output transformer secondary(it was one of the last Heyboer OTs that George carried with the US Standard color code, which is easily confused with the Euro color code on the secondary side, and as a result George had given me the wrong color code for the secondary...SORRY GEORGE LOL) so thinking we had a bad batch of Winged Cs he switched me to JJ E34Ls and OH MAN!!! HUGE difference in the tone as the mids were WAY heavier with the E34Ls. I was sold on JJs and I'll never use another brand of E34L. However, in most recordings with that amp, I can't really hear much of that tonal quality. As a matter of fact, the speakers themselves along with a persons playing I think have the most tonal influence on the recorded tone one gets from their rig. If I had used my top cab on that, which is a Mojo slant basketweave clone cab with G12H-30 Reissues in it, I definitely would not have gotten that close to Page's tone at all on that recording.

Jon

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:51 pm

Yeah. I mean, c'mon. When your playin through the amp you can tell such little differences in detailes and they make a world of difference... To you! Everyone else listening isnt exactly bowled over by the difference that means everything to the guy playing. That why Ive always tended not to get into crazy tone chasing things. Somethign tells me if I had the VH1 magic rig or Jimmi's RAH rig I still wouldnt necessarily love the tone when playing through it. Check out Todd Dugans Clips on the Marshall page right now. That dudes made clips with 800s, RIs, and high gain marshal mod type amps (splawn I think) and they all sound so EVH to me.

flemingmras · Post by **flemingmras** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:56 pm

Yes Dan it is true that most of your audience ain't gonna notice tonal quality and shit, however...you as the player do. And if you as the player have a tone that is just pure "magical" to you, it motivates you to just wanna lay into it and kick fuckin' ass. However, if the tone just seems bland and plain, you won't play as good as you would if you had that "magical" tone comin' from your amp. To sum it up, if you're already a great player and your playing tone is great, the better the amp makes your natural tone sound, the better you play.

However, if you're just a shitty player there ain't no amp in the world that's gonna save you.

Jon

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:22 pm

I agree. But I think your mising the main point Im thinkin of. Of coarse the better the tone is the better for you and youll be better for it. What I mean is it is only better for you while your playing. Stand back and have someone else play or record it and suddenly the huge difference you just felt isnt so big ya know? Its easy to say that but everyone will still go nuts over every little change. But to get back to the topic if I know Jimmi used 88s and you nail that tone with 34s, theres nothing 'wrong' with that. You stick 88s in you may hate it. I just dont think itll be as big an issue on tape as it is when your sitting playing though it.

NY Chief · Post by **NY Chief** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:17 pm

Read an interview with Brian Setzer once. He was at an SRV gig. Stevie waved him up and handed him his guitar. Setzers "Here I am plugged in to Stevie rig with number on my shoulder. I couldn't wait to play with SRV tone. Funny thing is, it still sounded like Brian Setzer coming oput of that amp!". And Setzer ain't no slouch either. I ahbve heard him play some serious Hendrix years ago on Long Island before the Cats.

rjgtr · Post by **rjgtr** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:51 pm

Page himself has said the first album is a Supro and a Tele. He also said that most of the Zep records were done using small amps and careful mic'ing. But isn't there film of Page using Teles, Dan Armstrongs, SG Doublenecks? He has even admitted to using a strat. So things aren't always clear or straghtforward.

As for reproducing the same sound or effect, it can be done many ways. If you look at the Zep DVD you'll see that on the earliest clips they aren't always using Marshalls. Of course, later on they did use Marshalls pretty exclusively.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:25 pm

Its funny. I heard a similar story about EVH and Ted Nuggent. Supposedly Ted was sayin all sorts a stuff runnin off at the mouth about Eddies sound and tone so Eddie got him on stage one night to play through his rig and it just sounded like Ted Nugent.

FMmark · Post by **FMmark** » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:15 pm

I gotta agree about the EMG's, I use nothing but in my basses, they sound very close to the pickups they are designed to replace but with more headroom. I heard a similar story about Nugent, but the way I heard it is that "The Nooge" just thought Ed's amps sounded great and wanted to compare them to his own and simply asked Ed if he could play through his stuff just to check it out. I'm sure there's probably four or five versions of that story though. Supposedly Ted was one of the most extreme about getting his stuff to sound right in the studio. This is from an engineering book I have and I just had to pass it on it's so funny:

On one occasion in the studio, he insisted that the only way to get "his sound" was to use all ten of his 100 watt Marshalls at full volume and that he also had to stand in the room with his amps. The absurdity of this should be apparent because it's likely that the engineer was only using one or two microphones in the first place. An additional problem was that regular studio monitor headphones and amplifiers cannot compete with a thousand watts of Marshall power and he could not hear the backing track. To get around this our guitar hero had comissioned special headphones with high-power driver amplifiers. Something went wrong; the volume of his first chord was so intense that he lost consciousness. As he lay twitching on his back, his big semi-acoustic hollowbody Gibson was feeding back so violently that it was actually bouncing on his stomach. Obviously he stayed like this for some time. The studio staff could not switch the amps off due to the noise, and also because they were so convulsed with laughter! You'll be relieved to know, though, that our hero recovered, and is still playing to this day.

Flames1950 · Post by **Flames1950** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:02 am

You'll be relieved to know, though, that our hero recovered, and is still playing to this day.

Yes he is....and surely his hearing was none the worse for the experience, right?

Necrovore · Post by **Necrovore** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:48 am

didnt think ol Nationalist Ted would ever play a MArshall and he only used Fenders back in the day and switched to Peavey in the 90's.

Flames1950 · Post by **Flames1950** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:00 am

No, I remember an interview with Tommy Shaw during the Damn Yankees thing where he said he thought Ted would sound better through his Boogies than the Marshalls Ted insisted on using...yeah, right, Tommy..........get off the crack........
And even back in his Fender days, those things sounded a little hotter than the average Twins.......