the vintage tremolo tuning thread

[Doug H]

So I put together a parts guitar with a vintage bridge. I haven't had a guitar with a bar on it in a while, my main MIM strat didn't come with a trem arm. Lot's of fun but major tuning problems, so I started (back) down the road of managing a vintage trem. Remembering back to my twenties, I got a bone nut which helped, and ultimately a FR so I haven't really thought much about it in a long time. I don't want to put a Floyd on this guitar, that's for guitar number 3 which is in the works.

The main skill/trick seems to be to know which strings are going to hang up sharp ofter a big dive and stretch them back into place, either with a big bend or tugging on them.

Friction being the killer, I picked up a graphtech nut, I can't really say if this helps or not, I still have serious tuning problems. This guitar is strung with 9s, and is staying that way at least uyntil I build guitar number 3. so that's probably not helping things. I've got a set of bullets I'm anxious to try, I hear they are easier on trem tuning. I'm also picking up some string saver saddles. I don't beleive the major problem is at the tail end, but I figure these might help a bit, and I think I might like how they sound on this particular guitar. All the hardware is black so I'm making this my "graphite" guitar, at least until I decide I don't like the graphtech stuff. To be honest, I'm not yet convinced it's anything but hype, and plan to get a regular bone nut and do some AB'ing.

They were sold out of nut sauce at Long and Maxquades (Canaian music store) so I haven't tried that stuff out yet.

So I've started back down the old road of discovery, I beleive 95% of the problem is the nut and string trees. Roller string trees are on the buy list.

Some say the bar leaves the strings hung up sharp, others say the string get's hung up flat after a big bend. I thought about this for a while trying to determine which state is more balanced, which I would think is after a dive bomb, but it's really irrelevent. What's for sure is the string has two resting states.

I've been playing for a while tuning to the bars resting position, and dipping the bar after big stretches. On my guitar it seems easier than tuning to the stretched strings and trying to tug the strings back down after using the trem. Still it has it's drawbacks.

Ideally I would like to tune to the stretched string, have the system to stay reasonably close, and just have to stretch and tug a bit now and again when a string hangs up a bit.

I'm really hoping the nut sauce has an impact, it might get me close enough to forget about it. I've done some net-research. SRV used graphite and grease to lubricate all moving and contact parts of the trem system. Beck has a guitar with a roller nut. I've found a quote where Eddie talks about tugging strings back after they hang up from trem use.

I really don't think there's anything going on with the string windings on the tuning pegs and I can't imaging how a different setup would greatly effect tuning stability.

There's the issue of having the strings going straight to the pegs from the bridge, meaning everything lines up in a perfectly straight line. My guitar sucks for this cause it's a weird narrow nech from a donar guitar. So the slotted nuts I buy I have to file at each end and it seems to me that the string spacing is probably being squeezed a bit though the nut. I might try and file a blank, but that involved buying nut files, I might just get a new neck if it comes to that. I'm not convinced the majority of the issue lies there either, I've tried sliding the saddle around so the "test" string looks straight and still get the same predictable tuning issues.

Plan A
graphtech nut and saddles
roller string tree (or graphtech if I can find them at a paypal site)
big bends nut sauce
Fender buller strings

I really think it all comes down to the friction through the nut and string trees.

[Doug H]

I picked up the graph tech string trees. I'm pretty sure they helped a bit, the G string is still a bugger though. I think with a real neck I'd probably be home free by now, but I wanna get some mileage out of this one.

I'm 99% sure I'm going for the saddles, make this the "teflon" guitar sort of thing, I don't expect tuning improvement there though but you never know.

[MacGaden]

I picked up the graph tech string trees. I'm pretty sure they helped a bit, the G string is still a bugger though. I think with a real neck I'd probably be home free by now, but I wanna get some mileage out of this one.

I'm 99% sure I'm going for the saddles, make this the "teflon" guitar sort of thing, I don't expect tuning improvement there though but you never know.

I´m 99% sure your tuning problems is at the nut/headstock end.. I´ll look for my post on it, and post it. Don´t get the Graphtech saddles.. Tone killers.

[Doug H]

ya, that's my thinking too. I've read mixed reviews on the SS saddles tone wise, some guys seem to like them. Judging from what I've read, they have a mellower sound which some feel softens the bite and attack, that wouldn't neccessarily be a bad thing for this one guitar. They also have a classic series out now that I think retain more of the stock sound.

I'd be intersted in a link to that thread.

[Tone-Freak]

buy graphite all from Rene Martinez and lube every thing http://www.texasguitarwhiz.com/

[Doug H]

I've got some big bends, but I want to see how good I can get it first. I'm trying to figure out where it is the strings are actually hanging up. I had a break through of sorts.

Between all the graphtech stuff I have on the headstock and little tests I was doing trying to determine where the friction was coming from, I was getting increasingly suspicious of the cheap black "vintage style" bridge I have. I swapped in my 62 reissue which sounded a lot better, better block I think, same problem though. While I had the other out, after reading about some bevelling on Wilkinsons, took a power drill and rounded off the leading edge where the string comes out of the plate/block.

I'm guessing either the block and plate don't line up perfect, leaving a lip, or thye harsh 90% angle is better ground down some, a bit of both I think. It's 99% better now, I can actually fake eruption not half bad. I did make a couple changes at the same time, some rubber washers so my tuyning pegs all fit tight, some wre just a bit loose, and maybe did a better job screwing the bridge down when I reinstalled.

I'm going to buy a small rat tail file and do a better job, try and make a gentle curve with no edges and see where that takes me.

[Doug H]

ok, so only maybe 50% better after playing it for a while today. The G string and Low E are still the main problem children.

[Doug H]

there's a conspiracy afoot Everytime I make a change, for the first few minutes, or day, I can't throw it out, then it slowly becomes more of a problem again. I'm not even sure how much grounding out the plate holes actually helped, although there was a giant leap forward at that point so I[m still thinking ya...

It may be the case that these bridges like being off the body a bit. It's a mixed blessing cause the bridge will pitch more on a big bender than if it was setup tighter, but I think the string angle is easier on the system at the rest position.

I have put some nut sauce on the G saddle, not sure if it's needed, it seemed to help for a while, couldn't throw it out, then again, it started hanging up sharp again.

I have a thought. When I really settle in to tune I tend to pull the strings with the thought of stretching them out as far as they go, and tune to this. I'm starting to think this is a bad idea. I need the strings to not go flat after a bender, so tuning up is importand. But yanking the strings to their absolute loosest I think is setting the strings unbalanced as a "home" position, just asking for trouble.

I've starting to try and find a sweet spot when tuning, not just wrench them as hard as I can till they stop going flat. So a Hendrix triple tone bender might leave the string a touch flat, if and when that happens I can just dip the bar a bit. It's a balance act, one string goes it effects the others, too much tension on one side at rest might upset the balance of the system, and if it's happier at rest, it might end up with more leeway in either direction that will return to pitch.

Just some ramblings

[Doug H]

Well I've pretty much got it cornered as the bridge as the main culprit. I've been smoothing and rounding the hole into the plate but still ahve about 10 cents or so between bar dump and big stretch depending on the string. I've been eyeballing some modern trems that report to be much better than the vintage Fender design, namely the prs and wilkinson. Both have the string balls close to the plate, I think that this eliminates, or virtually eliminates one of the two friction points on the bridge, allowing the natural tension of the string to return closer to pitch.

I've read about guys putting teflon tubes through the plate holes. I think If I used the nut sauce on all strings I'd be pretty damn close. I've ordered some strng savers, I know I've read a lot of guys don't like them, but I already have a MIM 60s classic I'm leaving a standard bridge and saddles on, I don't need two guitars that sound almost the same so I'm giving them a go. I'm hoping that less friction there means the strings will pull out of the block easier. I think I'm destined to ultimately buy a Wilkinson lol, but I'm curious to see how far I can take this.

If it's really desirable to have the strings go to the end of the block, the benifit of which is dubious, I think simply putting a teflon insert on the plate string hole for the string to go through would go a long way. I'm going to try the opposite with my MIM, which I plan on leaving the Fender 62 RI bridge I'm getting stock, and try and plug the holes with some rubber pegs, locking the string just behind the saddle like an accoustic.

[Doug H]

Tried the string savers, MacGaden, yer gonna say I told ya so lol. I expected a little more actually. I was hoping for a mellow velvet sort of sound with lots of mid range and sustain. They are midrangy, but mostly upper mid, actually brighter than steel saddles, sans the high end sizzle. Not as loud either unless I'm mistaken, I had to move the PU a little closer to the strings to get a comparable tone. They just didn't put out as much beef with my single coil guitar. It was kind of the difference between playing a steel string accoutic or a classical. They did have an interesting tone, but not what I'm looking for in this guitar. They also seemed to really let the block come through. They sounded like ass with the block from my classic 60 MIM, really birhgt and fuzzy, which is how that block sort of sounds to me. Tonnes better when I threw the block my noname vintage trem came with back in.

They did improve tuning stability. The difference between big wrench and dive bomb seemed smaller. I could still yank the strings flat if I tried, but more or less I just tuned to the bar and forgot about it.

Next up is this guy
http://yhst-50206111187217.stores.yahoo ... rpoar.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and then there's these
http://www.wdmusic.com/wilkinson_vintag ... hrome.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.wdmusic.com/gotoh_low_fricti ... black.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't know why that site seems to charge 75 bucks more than other sites for the Wilkinson. And that Gotoh, that's the first I've seen of it and can't find any other information on the net, not even a better pic.

[MacGaden]

Sorry, Doug, for not posting before. My original post seem to have been eaten when the board was moved to the new format..

Fender has a great setup guide for trems, that is almost the same as what I´ve done the last 25 years: http://www.fender.com/support/stratocaster.php

Pay attention to how you tighten the screws that hold the trem to the body. But I think that most tuning problems occour at the other end, at the headstock: A good nut, stable, or locking, tuning machines, and being careful when you put on strings..

I believe you need a block where the strings go all the way to the bottom for maximum tone. The teflon tubes are to prevent strings from breaking at the point where they rub on the edge of the holes in the bottom plate, not to help with tuning stability. I also believe you need to set vintage trems up to float for maximum tuning stability... (Let the flaming begin..)

If you are going to put a new trem on, I´d go for an American Std. trem, they come with better blocks and bent steel bridges in the latest version, and they really are very good, or one of these:

A Gotoh 510T-SF1C : http://www.wdmusic.co.uk/product/Contem ... 510T-SF1C#

They sound great, and feel right. I have one on one of my Strats, and Suhr uses them too.

Hope that helps.

[Tone-Freak]

my orgional 62 bridge never goes out even with dives. i use the graphite all and have it pulled against the body. So when i dive it goes back to the exact same place against the body and the trees and nut are lobed so no sticking there

[Doug H]

I've got graphite nut, trees, and 6 hole trem so that two poler won't work.

If you want to use the bar I really think you have to tune to it, but this means a really big bend can flatten the string. I can dive bomb and come back, as long as the string is tuned to the return of the bar and not stretching it out as hard as I can. It's that difference I'm trying to diminish. I'm 99% sure it's the bridge in my case, even though most tuning woes are likely at the cheap plastic nut on a lot of guitars.

I would agree that I think a floating bridge stays it tune better, slightly shallower angle across the saddles.

If I were to design a bridge , I'd have the plate hole slightly smaller than the block, so you knew it was only the plate touching the string, it'd have a slick wide curve for the string to go across and would protrude up off the plate to keep the angle across the saddle shallow. I'd also stagger the block holes like the Wilkies. Then I'd offer saddles in 3 or 4 different materials so people could get the tone they wanted.

[Doug H]

A Gotoh 510T-SF1C : http://www.wdmusic.co.uk/product/Contem ... 510T-SF1C#
Hope that helps.

I've read good things about the 510 series, Gotoh seems to be the company making decent bridges these days.

My heart's set on this, but in black, which I can't find

http://www.allparts.com/store/vsv400p-t ... roduct.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MacGaden]

A Gotoh 510T-SF1C : http://www.wdmusic.co.uk/product/Contem ... 510T-SF1C#
Hope that helps.

I've read good things about the 510 series, Gotoh seems to be the company making decent bridges these days.

My heart's set on this, but in black, which I can't find

http://www.allparts.com/store/vsv400p-t ... roduct.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Wilkinson trems are too "floppy" for my taste...

How do you put strings on ? Coming back too sharp can be caused by too much string around the post, especially on the G string.. The string wound around the post works like a wound spring, storing tension..It seems to get worse if you have two string trees..