How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

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Spodeeodee
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by Spodeeodee » Thu May 28, 2009 3:42 pm

I think I'll end up changing the specs to essentially make the amp a SS rectified JTM50, and see where that gets me.

If anything it will give me something to do for an afternoon over the weekend.
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by fjgaston » Fri May 29, 2009 8:03 am

If you want to have a Angus Young like tone, you really have to change your bridge pickup.
Classic 57 are not the best pickup (especially for that ACDC tone)
You'd better try good pickups, I mean real PAF or handwound replicas (Bare Knuckles or any other good winder)
Classic 57 are not very well balanced and not very faithful with the dynamic, for me it's the starting point.
If you got the good amp and the good guitar, then the hardest is still to do, I mean playing as good as Angus.

Good Luck !!!!!

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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by Spodeeodee » Fri May 29, 2009 9:32 pm

Haha, I can try to sound like Angus, but could only hope to PLAY like that!
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by OnTheFritz » Fri May 29, 2009 11:56 pm

Spodeeodee wrote:Haha, I can try to sound like Angus, but could only hope to PLAY like that!
Haha, not to mention moving around like he does whilst playing like that!
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by Spodeeodee » Sat May 30, 2009 6:51 pm

Today I changed V1 to a shared cathod (220uf/820), and changed the tone stack to 250pf/56k. I would have also liked to remove the .68uf cap on V2 but I did not have a 820 resistor to span the board. I immediately noticed some changes in both the tone and the feel.

As for the feel, the attack seems slightly softer, but not much. After all, the amp still has 33/50/50 filtering.

As for the tone, there is now less emphasis on the highs and high mids. Low mids are more audible to me. Bass seems much more audible and less focused to the point of being farty on the bright channel when the bass knob is at 3 or above. When the amp was at 68 specs, the normal channel almost seems like you were listening to it from another room or under water (it seemed muffled), but now it sounds more open, much less muffled, and all around more usable. From what I've read, I'm guessing the biggest change came from the tone stack change. I dont mind what the tone stack has done, but I'm not sure it's for me.

Could anyone tell me what changes might occur if I change the shared cathode to 330uf?
Travis
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by mwm523 » Sat May 30, 2009 8:32 pm

If you change the V1 cathode cap from 220uf to 330uf, you'll be letting even more, lower bass frequencies through. This will probably give you even more farty, flubby bass. You could try reducing that cap to 50uf or less to help tame the farty bass. Some people go as low a 5uf here.
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by Spodeeodee » Sun May 31, 2009 7:13 pm

Spodeeodee wrote:I dont mind what the tone stack has done, but I'm not sure it's for me.
The more I play it, the more it grows on me. Not AC/DC, but very Cream-y
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by terryy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:25 pm

i think angus's sg's had 490's through a jtm45 back with bon anyways, thats the ticket when i try to sound like angus back then. there are other trademark sounds you need a sg for as well w/490's, i can nail joey moelling's sound. tony iommi well the early days there was nothing but stock pups,but plug into what he was using for an amp,which i think was a marshall major.
50's definitely tipton and downings sound,tipton preferred sg's but i don't know what pups he was using,my guess would be a ceramic mag pup though.

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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by Roe » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:14 am

here's some tips that may help:
- try 270k mixer resistors (or try a 250pf with the 470Ks)
- try these settings: vol 1: 8ish; bass: 2-5; mids: 3ish; treble: 6-8; presence: 1-3
- try carbon film resistors
-don't run a hot bias, try 60% diss rather than 70%
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by Roe » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:45 am

terryy wrote:i think angus's sg's had 490's through a jtm45 back with bon anyways, thats the ticket when i try to sound like angus back then. there are other trademark sounds you need a sg for as well w/490's, i can nail joey moelling's sound. tony iommi well the early days there was nothing but stock pups,but plug into what he was using for an amp,which i think was a marshall major.
50's definitely tipton and downings sound,tipton preferred sg's but i don't know what pups he was using,my guess would be a ceramic mag pup though.
ang used t-tops. old pics shows 100watters, no jtm45s. ang has stated that he used a bright sounding 100w plexi on the old records. this appears to hold true for the period from dirty deeds (1976) on.
high voltage sounds like a 45/100, but dirty deeds sounds like super lead. let there be rock is more elusive. could have been a middle booster.
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by suede » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:15 pm

I'd have to side with Roe, Angus used and probably still uses T-tops or custom handwound LOW output Pafs. Low output like 7.5k. 8.0k might get you close. The 57's aren't even in the ballpark. I had an Angus sig in my SG, wasted my money. If you look for the thread Roe posted on AC/DC it's a wealth of info on their tone. As far as your amp goes I think it'll depend on what era of his tone your after again what Roe has mentioned. I've done my share of tweaking on my metro 50 watter to try to get there but IMO it'll have to start with the low output Paf. There are lots of guys to look at Lindy Fralin, BareKnuckles etc for those type of pickups. For what it's worth I've got a Dimarzio 36th aniversary Dp103N Fully Vintage Paf on it's way. Alnico V 7.31k output. I hear people ever trying to tame the brightness of the 50 watter but the pickup is as much to blame as anything I think. Hell you want it bright just with the right pickup. I'm on the same quest you are. Keep tweaking. There are tons of things you can do to the amp but it'll be never ending if you don't address the pup issue. I'd be more than happy to list all the variations I've tried. Tone, and more specific Angus's tone is a combination of all the parts, guitar, amp, speakers, pups and his hands. So the question is do you want his tone or do you want to get close? Hope this helps.

Suede

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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by terryy » Sat Jun 06, 2009 5:07 pm

i can't help you on the tech side of things, if you are still after a AC/DC sound it is a sg/490's~jtm45, that is the angus dead ringer sound. the 490 as far as i know is the lowest output humbucker gibson makes.

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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by Roe » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:03 am

well angus does not use the current 490. the old name for pafs were also 490 by the way
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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by suede » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:48 pm

Again Roe is correct. There's a ton of info on the net if a person is willing to search. The problem is knowing if the info is credible. I'll say it again LOW output pickups alnico V magnets 7.5k ohm pickups. Here's some info of interest.

The AC/DC Guitar Tone
By Roe Fremstedal

This article tries to shred light on the AC/DC guitar tone, especially the studio tone. Besides drawing on interviews and pictures, the article relies on testing SGs, Gretsches, speakers by Celestion, Weber and Scumback and the classical Marshall circuits from the JTM45 to the 2203.
Guitars, strings and picks
Malcolm is well-known for his use of a Gretsch 1963 Jet firebird given to him by Harry Vanda of the Easybeats. In fact, Malcolm claims to have used this guitar on all studio recordings except the song High voltage from 1975 which is a Gibson. In an interview with Guitar world by Richard Bienstock, Malcolm said that he believes the guitar on High Voltage was a Gibson L-5. However, pictures from the period (1975) suggest that the guitar was not the L-5 but the L5S, a solidbody Gibson made in the 70s. Also, Malcolm used a Gretsch White Falcon for the Back in Black videos and some early 80s concerts.
In the early days Malcolm installed a Gibson humbucker in the middle position of his Jet Firebird, but around 1976 he removed the Gibson humbucker and the neck Filtertron as well as removing the finish. Around the same time, he removed the Burns vibrato system and installed a Bad ass bridge ( Angus also used a Bad ass bridge for a short period, see pictures from early 1978). Around 2000, however, Malcolm removed the Bad ass bridge in favour of an original Burns vibrato.
Since the recording of Blow up your video (1988), Malcolm have had several new Gretsch guitars made. However, he very much seems to prefer his old guitar. Having tried a few Malcolm young signature models, and owned one since 2004, I dare to say that these models get pretty close to Malcolm’s sound. The Malcolm Young signature models are basically the same guitar as the Duo Jet and Sparkle Jets, with the exception of the Bad ass bridge, the finish and the single pickup option. The first of these newer Gretsch guitars had ceramic magnet Filtertron pickups. These magnets will neither give you the classis Gretsch tone nor the Malcolm tone. However, the later pickups with alnico magnet, and the TV Jones’ TV Classics, are much better. Also, the switches have been improved – the first ones have very poor switches.
With the exception of the very first days, Malcolm is well known for using heavy strings (i.e., .012-.056 with a .025 wound G). What usually get overlooked, however, is that he uses pure nickel roundwound strings. These strings have a warmer sound than the usual strings which is an alloy of stainless steel and nickel. Part of the key to the AC/DC sound is that Malcolm uses thick pure nickel strings while Angus uses Ernie Ball slinkies (from .09-.042 to .010-.048). Malcolm uses NOS Gibson strings that are hard to find. The modern Gibson strings that come closest are the L-5 Jazz strings. However, I feel that the best new nickel strings are the Pyramids. These typically sound brighter and more defined and punchy than new Gibsons or GHSs. The Pyramids can sound a tad bright and twangy in person, but they sound very close amplified through a JTM45/100 and recorded with a Sm57. You can get a thick, dirty sound that is very distinct and defined.
Both Young brothers have used Fender heavy picks (or custom made picks that are similar). This type of pick is important for getting the right top end.
It should be noted that Angus’ main recording guitar, his old SG from the late 60s or early 70s, is supposed to be original, suggesting that it has the original t-top pickups. Also, the 1964 SG that Angus used on Ballbreaker is supposed to be stock, suggesting that it has 1964 patent number (patent #) pickups without formwar wire. This gives us pretty good indication of which type of pickups Angus have used. The specs on t tops (and the last pat. #) pickups are typically:
- Degaussed (420 gauss) alnico 5 magnets
- 7.5k ohms, +/- 0.25k, although a few have reported to have read around 8k.
- Symmetrical winding, not asymmetric like some PAFs
My experience is that these specs are much better for Angus’s tone than hotter PAF type pickups. In particular, alnico 5 is much better than alnico 2 and 4. It should also be noted that the Gibson Angus signature pickup is a much hotter pickup that neither sounds like the t tops nor the old AC/DC sound. The T top pickups have been recreated by Fralin and Highorder.
The SGs I have tried that came closest to Angus’s tone were typically very light guitars that sounded punchy and bright both unplugged and through an amp. (A Les Paul will typically sound to fat in the low mids, and therefore interfere with Malcolm’s tone.) By far, the old SGs I’ve tried, and the Tokai SG-155 (akaSG-175), sounds much closer to Angus’s tone than the new Gibson SGs, including the historic models. I’m inclined to believe that Honduran mahogany is part of the reason of this.

Malcolm’s recording amps: Superbass and JTM45/100
In an interview with Marshall law 9 05/2006, Malcolm said:

I’ve used my favourite amps on all these recordings. […] I have an old 100 Watt Super Lead amplifier, the one with the white plastic backplate with gold script lettering, it’s a great amp, I also have a 100 Watt Super Bass amp that’s great too! They are both well old and well used!

The 100w amps with white plastic backplate and gold script lettering, are Super amps from 1965 to very early 1967, not the later Super leads. An article by Ritchie Flieger in Guitar world November 1995 (p. 177), confirms Malcolm’s use of these early 100watters. Flieger reported that Malcolm’s used a kt66 amp with a 625 b+ voltage. Flieger suggested that this was a 1967 JTM100 amp. However, the use of kt66s and (the high b+ voltage) suggests that the amp used the 1204-43 power transformer and probably the 1202-84 output transformers rather than the 1202-119. Thus, the amp is likely a JTM45/100 from 1966 or very early 1967. One of the experts on these amps, Chris ******, has later said that the choke was removed on Malcolm’s amp in order to reduce the screens voltage and thereby increase tube life. This sounds plausible as the kt66s will not survive long with screens voltage above 620 volts – that’s way over the design specs, and even the GECs will have problem at this voltage. Notice that this mod will lead to more sag. This – together with the Filtertrons – could explain Malcolm’s somewhat compressed tone on Ballbreaker (1995).
Mal’s other main amp type is the Superbass. In an interview with Guitar World after Stiff Upper Lip (2000), Malcolm said that he has used his old Superbass on all the recordings, starting with 1976’s Dirty Deeds. Malcolm also said that the amp was slightly modded. Moreover, Geoff Banks, the guitar tech on the Stiff Upper Lip, said in an interview that “In the studio we used old, late-’60s, early-’70s Marshall Super Bass 100s.” Although, Malcolm’s Superbass has been refereed to as an early 60s model, it seems much more plausible that is from the late 60s or the early 70s. The first real superbass amps, excluding the earlier super amps, came in the spring of 1967. The circuit stayed the same but the filtering increased from 1967 to 1969, making the amp stiffer and tighter. Also, the output transformer (OT) changed from the 2” in 1967 to the later 1.5” OT.

Angus’s amps: 100w, 50w, JTMs
Since the recording of Ballbreaker (1995), and the article by Ritchie Flieger in Guitar Player, Angus has often been taken to have used JTM45s. However, Flieger said that Angus used three different JTM45s. It seems plausible that these amps had different output transformers (e.g. Radiospares, an early Drake or the later 784-103 and 784-128). Although Angus may have used a GZ34 tube rectifier on solos and licks, many riffs sounds like a solid state rectifier. Also, a picture of Angus’s live rig on the Ballbreaker tour strongly suggest that one on the JTMs were in fact a 1967 black flag JTM50 (the other amp in the picture being a JMP50). Although, some have claimed that High Voltage (1976) was JTMs and kt66s, it seems plausible that Angus used many different Marshalls on the different albums. Having tried many JTM45s I find it hard to believe that Angus main amp in the early days were a stock JTM45. For instance, Let there be rock (1977), especially Overdose, does not sound like a JTM unless Angus used a treble booster. To me many of the later plexis and aluminium panels sounds closer to Angus’s 70s tone than a JTM45. In any case, many pictures and videos shows that Angus and Malcolm used 2203s on late 70s gigs. When Richard Bienstock (in a Guitar Player interview) asked which amps Angus used on the early records, Angus replies

For me it was always Marshall 100-watt Super Leads. I had bought one secondhand somewhere in Australia when I was younger, and it had a great sound. Very bright. And that was it.

This suggests that Angus used the 1959 circuit from 1968 or later with the 5000pf bright cap. This could very well be possible if you ask me. When asked by Bierstock, what he used on Back in Black (1980), Angus said:

Still 100-watt Super Leads. The old-style ones, without those preamp things. I remember at the time that was the new thing Marshall was trying to push. They were trying to get people interested in ’em, but I wasn’t really interested.

The new thing probably refers to JCM800 or 2203s. Marshalls have actually claimed that Angus used JCM800 2203s on Back in Black. However, pictures for the rehearsals shows 2203s from 1976, not the JCM800s. Also to Angus’ reply above, Malcolm added:

In addition to the Super Leads I think Angus went to a smaller 50-watt Marshall for his solos. Just for some extra warmth. I was still using my Marshall bass head, and I believe Cliff had a little [sic] SVT amp.

It should be mentioned that some other interviews and articles also suggests that Angus often uses 50watters for solos. The idea seems to be that some solos require a warmer and middier sound that’s more compressed whereas heavy riffs require the punch, headroom and tightness of the 100watters. If you listen to the Back in Black title track, it seems that Malcolm has a tighter and stiffer sound than Angus, suggesting Malcolm used a post 1969 superbass whereas Angus might have used a 1967 or 1968 super lead.

Speakers: G12Hs and Vintage 30s
Interviews with various techs (Alan Rogan, Ritchie Flieger and Geoff Banks) indicate that Malcolm and Angus both used Celestion Vintage 30s from Razors Edge (1990) to Stiff Upper Lip (2000). However, Angus seems to have used the G12M, probably the Reissue, on the last albums. Some claim that Angus used the G12Ms for the riffs and the Vintage 30s for the solos. However, I would not leave out the possibility that it was the other way around. Also, rumour has it that Malcolm and Angus used Heritage G12M 20watters and Alnico Golds on Black Ice. Rick St.Pierre of Wizard amps, the young brothers main amp tech for the past 20 years, seem also to prefer these speakers. The early albums, on the other hand, were cut with old Marshall 4x12” cabs. Pictures from the 70s show a few basketweave cabs and many checkerboard and black gill cabs. This suggests that the young brothers used the bright sounding blackbacks more often than the highly sought after pre-rolas. Listening to the 70s albums, I’d guess that Malcolm and Angus used G12Hs rather than G12Ms. The G12H sounds punchier, tighter and louder whereas the G12M sounds more distorted and middy. Overall, the G12H 75hz seems to be the best all-round Angus speakers, whereas the 55hz may be better for Malcolm, at least if we are talking about the brighter blackback version rather than the pre-rola. At any rate, Angus uses a bright tone with somewhat scooped low mids whereas Malcolm uses a much thicker tone. The 75hz seems – or even the vintage 30 – seems a good candidate for Angus’s scooped rhythm sounds whereas the 55hz is better for Malcolm’s thick rhythm sound. Also, Malcolm and Angus seem to have used some 65 watters around 1980. At least, pictures from the rehearsals prior to the recording of Back in Black show the large dust cap of these speakers.
Mics, preamps, compressors and boards
According to Tony Plat, the guitar mics on Back in Black were Neumanns: one U87 and one U67 on each guitar or cab. AC/DC also used Neumann mics on other albums: Each amp on If you want blood (1978) was supposed to have “at least one U47 mic” on it. For Stiff Upper Lip, on the other hand, Geoff Banks that Angus’s mics were

a Shure SM57 close on the speaker, just off center of the cone. We had an AKG mic pulled back a bit, and we had a Sennheiser a little closer, toward the outer edge of the speakers. I think the 57 gave him what he wanted.

According to Tony Plat, there were no compression on drums or guitars on Back in Black. It seems quite possible that Angus and Malcolm don’t use compression on the guitars more generally.
Like the Beatles and many others, AC/DC seems to have used Fairchild compressors for mastering, probably the 670 or the 660. Also, they seem to prefer the sound of Neve boards – both the olds albums and new albums were done with Neve boards.


Hope this helps shed some light. Thanks, Roe

Suede

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Re: How can I make my 50 watt sound more like AC/DC?

Post by terryy » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:42 am

still,when you plug a sg/490's-paf's into a 45,your gonna get angus's sound. it just happens to be. so carry on.....

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