Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdict:

[ledzep443]

I'm glad there are others that share my view on MM transformers! I'm sure some people like their tone, but their just not what I'm looking for in a Marshall. BTW, great review, I really enjoyed reading it.

[fillmore nyc]

BTW, great review, I really enjoyed reading it.

Thank you, my friend!!

[neikeel]

I have to agree with you.

I am sure that the MM are great transformers, but I too find them relatively clean and almost sterile. If you are building a custom high gain amp where you need crisp hard edges and high filtering then these trannies and a set of 6L6s or 6550 are it.

I prefer the Metro Heyboers, lower filtering and El34s (except for the KT66s in my JTMs of course )

[PCollen]

BTW, great review, I really enjoyed reading it.

Thank you, my friend!!

Did you by chance measure and compare the DC resistance of the primary winding (each side to center-tap) of each of these two O/T's .

[fillmore nyc]

BTW, great review, I really enjoyed reading it.

Thank you, my friend!!

Did you by chance measure and compare the DC resistance of the primary winding (each side to center-tap) of each of these two O/T's .

No, Im sorry to say that I didnt.

[demonufo]

Hmm, I'll measure mine when I rip the MM out. Should've done it tonight really, since I was home alone. Oh well...

[jonamojo]

I got the mercury upgrade, then subbed it out for a marstran, I rather liked the coldness of the mercury, that dissipated after 100 hours of use, I ended up getting rid of the marstran. As far as sag goes the amp had plenty of sag if not I would have lowered filtering

[Janglin_Jack]

I have used many Mercury transformers, and liked all of them. They have lots of different transformers to suit various styles and applications. Once you get the right model to suit your taste, I find them second to none. I have had good results with Drakes, Heyboer, Mojo and others. Anyhow, just seemed like some of the Mercury's were getting bashed a bit. I know this all boils down to personal preference.

Mike

[fillmore nyc]

Anyhow, just seemed like some of the Mercury's were getting bashed a bit. I know this all boils down to personal preference.

Mike

That really is what it boils down to... personal preference. Like I said up front, the Merc's are NOT bad, but you've gotta want that sound. Im repeating myself from my initial post, but with the Mercs it sounded VERY modern and "fast", and not "vintage" at all. Im pretty confident that no amount of break in time would get it sounding as authentic as it sounds now, and the Metro Heyboers have not had much playing time on them yet. Im SUPER looking forward to what it'll sound like with 100+ hours on it!!
With the Mercs it was WAY too far away from vintage for break-in time to make THAT much change, but IF someone was looking for a ballsy, modern & fast sounding 50 watt, I'd recommend the Mercs without hesitation, cause for THAT kinda tone, it sounded amazing. Again, with the Mercs, it sounded closer to my Soldano, or maybe a Mojave Scorpion... great sounding, but definitely not vintage sounding.

Put it this way... IMO, it would be like saying that with time, a Seymour Duncan '59 will sound close to an actual (great) PAF. Nothing wrong with the Duncan, until its compared to a real PAF. Suddenly it sounds stiff and a bit cold. You can give a Duncan 10 years of playing time, and it'll NEVER sound like a great PAF.

At this point, my amp does sound like a (great) vintage amp, and I've played a few real nice vintage amps to know that tone. So again, not bashing Merc's at all, but they have their own thing going on, and having heard both, IMO its not a vintage thing. Like the Duncan vs real PAF comparison, I've heard both, and the contrast is pretty dramatic.

Jim and Dave at MetroAmp both felt the same way, having heard both versions of my amp... that they wouldnt have realized there was THAT much difference until they heard my amp (with Mercs), compared to the 50 watt Plexi (with Metro trannys) they had just built for Jims rhythm guitar player... Its NOT a subtle difference.
If they were side by side, you'd hear it immediately on the first note.

[suede]

I've been following this thread for a while now and I don't agree with the definition presented of vintage. IMHO TIME and lots of it I believe are what culminate to become what one calls vintage. Of course a 59 Duncan is not going to sound exactly like a good OLD paf. Niether is any tranny compaired to one that's 30+ years old. SIMULATED but that's it. That's like 2 people in a race where one has a mile head start and they both run at the same rate and expecting at some point that the one will catch the other assuming they both live forever. Not going to happen. The one has had that time to progress, age and all the other things that come by way of TIME. Things can simulate vintage but they will always lack the benifit of time. Given enough time and they become vintage on their own. A closer comparison would be to have an out of the box Drake from 68 and side by side it with anybody's tranny. Personally I've A/B'd them all and the differences are moot. The circuit is IMO the biggest influence on tonal changes whatever one wants to call it. I have a Metro 50 watter that I've been through extensivly for almost 2 years now. I have enough parts to build 3 or 4 new amps. That is because I did not know how things worked from a technical stand point. Cost me some money but so does any education right? I have the amp where it will stay now. People will ask what trannies do you have and I won't say cause the decision I made on what to go with is a individual as I am. I will say that my decision was not based on tone or sound or anything audible. Oh ya, the defintion and what influences SAG is lacking as well. I'll stop now before I PO more people. That's just my 2 cents.

[bulatovic]

Great review!!!

To be honest i was very interested in how things turned out, as i got a set of transformers from Marstran for my next 50w build. From everything i've read, Marstran came as quite obvious choice as i'm leaning towards "vintage" Marshall tone. As a proud owner of an 18w Tremolo clone i got used to lower filtering, sag and vintage vibe, so no modern stuff for me

I think we're not talking here about how vintagy is really all the new stuff we put in our amps, but what brings us closest to THE SOUND of, say in this case, a JMP50 from the late 60s. No matter what sort of wire, iron or winding tricks manufacturers use, it becomes summed up when the amp is turned on and you see what's what. So, yeah, i do not doubt for a second that MM uses nothing but the best parts for their transformers, but i didn't go their way, because there's just too many people say that it's not all that close to what we're looking for - a replica of on OT found in an amp that's from late 60s. If they found out recently that manure coated wire is the one to go if you want to get that sound, even if that's not even remotely era correct, who cares?! I know I don't!

my 2c...

[fillmore nyc]

I've been following this thread for a while now and I don't agree with the definition presented of vintage. IMHO TIME and lots of it I believe are what culminate to become what one calls vintage. Of course a 59 Duncan is not going to sound exactly like a good OLD paf. Niether is any tranny compaired to one that's 30+ years old. SIMULATED but that's it. That's like 2 people in a race where one has a mile head start and they both run at the same rate and expecting at some point that the one will catch the other assuming they both live forever. Not going to happen. The one has had that time to progress, age and all the other things that come by way of TIME. Things can simulate vintage but they will always lack the benifit of time. Given enough time and they become vintage on their own. A closer comparison would be to have an out of the box Drake from 68 and side by side it with anybody's tranny. Personally I've A/B'd them all and the differences are moot. The circuit is IMO the biggest influence on tonal changes whatever one wants to call it. I have a Metro 50 watter that I've been through extensivly for almost 2 years now. I have enough parts to build 3 or 4 new amps. That is because I did not know how things worked from a technical stand point. Cost me some money but so does any education right? I have the amp where it will stay now. People will ask what trannies do you have and I won't say cause the decision I made on what to go with is a individual as I am. I will say that my decision was not based on tone or sound or anything audible. Oh ya, the defintion and what influences SAG is lacking as well. I'll stop now before I PO more people. That's just my 2 cents.

Suede, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and for sure, you dont have to agree with the (or my) definition of "vintage" or "sag", but HOWEVER you wanna define it, I've played quite a few actual vintage 50 watt Marshalls, and I know how this amp compares to those before and after the tranny swap with its current components. The amp has had its circuit juggled around a bit, and while those changes DID make a difference, it doesnt even come close to the diff that happened once the trannys were changed.
I also understand the idea of components aging too, and its effect on them. If someone is building a new amp, with new parts, (not NOS parts, which I didnt have access to) the best that can be hoped for is to come close by using replica parts... sometimes you get real lucky and the new-part build turns out to be a mind blower. Mine did.
That being said, going back to the PAF example, there are some pickup builders that can construct a mind blowing PAF replica that will exceed all but the best example of an actual PAF.
One of my friends has an LP (with actual PAF's) that sounds like shit, and I've played new PAF replicas that would clean those PAF's clock, easily.
I also have an old LP with PAF's. To date, I've never played any humbucker equipped LP that can touch it. A LOT of old equipment is inconsistent as shit.

For me and my ears, this amp DOES exceed just about every vintage 50 watt Marshall I've ever played thru. Its got EVERY great attribute of those amps, while having a super deep (yet still vintage sounding) bottom end, AND its got brand-new reliability. It CERTAINLY exceeds any current new mfg's replica of a Plexi that I've played, and having UltraSound studio in Manhattan at my disposal, I've played just about every one you can name.

BTW, no worries about "PO'ing" anyone with your 2 cents. Like I said, you're certainly entitled to your opinion, and "PO'ing" people just cause they have a differing opinion is not what THIS forum is about, at least for me, and it seems to be the same for most of the friends I've made here.
The HC forum is more about dudes throwing piss fits cause someone disagrees with 'em.
Anyone can take (or leave) what is said in these threads as they like. I put this up because it was (and is) my experience with this amp, and how it compares to itself, pre and post the tranny swap, and how it compares to other vintage 50's I've played thru.
If its a worthwhile read for someone, then cool. If not, then skip past it. Its all good.

Great review!!!
I think we're not talking here about how vintagy is really all the new stuff we put in our amps, but what brings us closest to THE SOUND of, say in this case, a JMP50 from the late 60s. No matter what sort of wire, iron or winding tricks manufacturers use, it becomes summed up when the amp is turned on and you see what's what.

my 2c...

Thanks, bro.
And what you said about it being summed up when its turned on and seeing whats what?? Right on the money!!
I couldnt agree more!!

[Janglin_Jack]

Well, if Mercury had OT offering for a 50w, I could see making a catch all comment. But they have so many different 50w OT and PT, (15-20??), that you can make the right choice for what ever tone you are after. To say a Merc is cold vs a Marstran, maybe so, but what model? Maybe a different model would have measured up better.

My JTM45 build years ago, came out really good, but I thought, it was a little "tight" with the Merc I had in there. Then I talked to Paul at Mercury, opted for a Radio Spares OT and bam....wow. What a sound. Right tool for the job. No harm in using Marstran or anything else, if it sounds good, it is good. But I don't think you can generalize about Mercs the way this thread is trying to.

Mike

[bulatovic]

I really cant't see why, but i do get a sense that some guys (mostly who own MM trannies) find this thread somewhat insulting...

I believe there's only one specific OT that is being discussed here, and that's MM O50JM which MM calls ToneClone, and claims to be the original design, and should be the closest replica to the original one.
Again, i did not find anything but praise and great words for MM trannies, it's just that compared to the, specifically speaking, Heyboer made transformers (George's and Brian's - Marstran), they seem a bit cold and too stiff - i have to say that i haven't tried them, but there are quite a few reviews here made by, let's say, knowledgeable people of this forum who found the same difference between those transformers.

Again and again i keep asking everyone this question -WHY WOULD YOU CARE what it's called, who is it made by, if it's "era correct", what materials were used, or something else - IF IT SOUNDS PERFECT TO YOU? Tone chasing doesn't mean that if you are after a 50w Marshall, you have to have one with the "original" spec and with trannies that sound the closest to the original.

To me this is like comparing the new BMW M3 and Audi S4 while trying to get the same performance as 40 year old Ferrari that you'd just love to have, just can't afford or find it a bit inconvenient to use everyday - reliability and stuff...you get the point.

Summa summarum for me here is - there is NOT a better transformer between MM and Heyboer made, it's just the case of finding your own preference.

This is a rather tricky topic, as, Eric Costello said: "writing about music is like dancing about architecture"...

God, if everytime i'd joined a discussion about something that's up to personal taste, i played a riff instead - i'd be as good a guitar player as any of your idols

[fillmore nyc]

My JTM45 build years ago, came out really good, but I thought, it was a little "tight" with the Merc I had in there. Then I talked to Paul at Mercury, opted for a Radio Spares OT and bam....wow. What a sound. Right tool for the job.

Thats exactly how I felt after the Merc was out... Metro tranny... right tool for this job. I spoke to Patrick at Merc at least 8 times asking about his recommendations for the tone I was looking for. I asked about ToneClones, Radio Spares (which they dont offer for a 50 watt), and Axioms, and about the different versions of those parts. I used the O50JM OT and the P4550JT-G2 PT with an MC10H choke at their recommendation. THEY recommended the G2 PT because of the lower B+ voltage specifically because I wanted the amp to be aggressive and dirty, not clean.
For MY uses, that recommendation DID NOT work as well as the Metro parts, which is what Jim at MetroAmp recommended from the get-go.

But I don't think you can generalize about Mercs the way this thread is trying to.

I dont think the intent here was to "generalize" anything. I said it up front that it is my observation about these 2 brands of trannys in THIS application.
Im NOT bashing or generalizing Merc iron, and I've reiterated that numerous times. My Soldano and my Roccaforte both have Merc iron in them. I LOVE those amps for their solid, quick response, and wouldnt swap those trannys for anything, cause in those applications, they work amazingly well, and Im certain no improvement would come of it.
I suppose I could have screwed around trying other Merc parts to try to find the sound that I was looking for, or tried playing it for 200+ hours to see if it started sounding like I wanted it to, but why do that?
As I said in the initial post, it was recommended to me right from the start that the Metro parts WILL produce the sound Im after, by someone that had just built the very amp I was looking to replicate.
After a few circuit tweaks didnt do the job, and STILL not being satisfied with the results, IN THIS AMP, going with what was initially recommended just sounded like a better route to take, and in the end, for me, it was the right decision.
I stand by what I posted... for an accurate "older" sounding 50 watt Marshall style amp, to my ears, the Metro iron immediately sounded more authentic than the Merc iron that Merc themselves recommended. Thats not a generalization... its my observation (and Jim and Dave at Metro's observation as well) for THIS amp.