Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdict:

Get support and show off your MetroAmp 50 Watt kit builds.

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Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdict:

Post by fillmore nyc » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:25 pm

This is about my observations regarding Mercury ToneClone iron vs the "Metro-spec" Heyboer trannys in my 50 watt MetroAmp plexi. Maybe this might help out anyone contemplating one tranny or the other.

Up front: Im no amp builder, and Im really in awe of so many of you guys that know your shit SO deeply on the internals of an amp. I build and play guitars, and I've never found the time to even start on the 50 watt Plexi kit (the first one MetroAmp ever sold) that I bought so long ago. I finally conceded that I WASN'T gonna find enough time to build it, and I didnt wanna F-up a nice kit for my first, so I sent 'er back to have Jim at MetroAmp build it.

Well, its been a few months having my Metro 50 watt Plexi make the trip to Burton MI (twice) to be built, tweaked, and tranny-swapped by the good 'ol boys at MetroAmp. (Jim and Dave... MONDO props to you guys for all your help and advice).
The amp started life as a '68 Bass spec, but was nowhere near aggressive enough for my tastes. A local amp tech stuck his hands in there, modifying it to be much more aggressive while still retaining the fatness of the original Bass spec. Currently, I'd call it a modified Lead/Bass spec. Its played thru a Marshall Mode Four cab loaded with a quad of old, original G12-65's. With an original LP, I was looking to nail Duane Allmans tone from the Fillmore recordings. I did NOT want a clean sounding 50 watt--I wanted an aggressive screaming '71 metal-front era animal. Circuit-wise, ultimately I got exactly what I wanted.

Against Metro's initial advice, I opted for Mercury ToneClone iron for the PT, OT and choke, figuring Mercs HAD to be the best choice in a custom amp like this.
(Note to self: LISTEN to an experts advice, and DONT think you know more than someone that does this shit for a living, cause ya dont).

Well, out of the box (and after the aforementioned aggression modding) with the Merc iron, the amp sounded GREAT... solid as concrete bottom end, superb, crisp definition, awesome note separation, and a singing, liquid sustain that raised the hair on the back of my neck. The amp had a lot of touch-sensitivity, easily cleaning up with lighter pick attack or simply rolling back on the guitars volume. And it SCREAMED in both channels, with the "Normal" channel having a fat-ass bottom end and later break-up than the "Bright" channel, which was overdriven into sustain by the time the volume was at "2" or better. Set the Normal to the desired volume and fatness, set the Bright to add crunch to taste, and wail away like a mo-fo.

Sounds perfect, right?? No. The one thing this amp lacked was ANY sag, or resemblance to "vintage" anything. LIGHTNING fast pick attack (it sorta reminded me of a Soldano in that way), and to my ear, upper-mids that didnt remind me of any Marshall I ever heard. They didnt sound necessarily BAD, just kinda hard, and Mid was a control that basically stayed off, or very low at best. Bottom was SUPER solid and ballsy and shook the glass in my house. Top end was sweet and intense at the same time. VERY cutting. Not vintage in the least.

Lots of phone calls!! Mercury says its not the trannys. Metro says it IS the trannys. What to do?? Brought it out again to my good bud in Medford, N.Y. (Richie Johnson, the aforementioned other tech... gotta give props where they're due). Richie knows Marshalls like NYC knows pollution. He tweaked the circuit a bit, added a pot on the NFB, and virtually TOLD me that despite the mods, the "problem" is in the trannys.

Its a very tough decision yanking out expensive iron like Mercs for Heyboers, (even though Im being told they're "Metro-spec" Heyboers, and have nothing to do with off the shelf Heyboers). But the bottom line was that I was beginning to not like the amp, NOT because it sounded "bad" (cause it didnt), it just didnt sound "RIGHT" for my needs at all. I already have "fast", modern sounding amps. I didnt need another one.
Well, amp road trip #2 to Michigan, this time to bite the bullet, concede to what everyone is telling me, and have the Mercs yanked out, and the Metro-Heyboers (along with the Metro choke) installed.

Get the amp back, re-install my beloved Brimars and Mullards, biased it up and plug it in, VERY suspect that there will be any improvement. In fact, I expected to be disappointed.
(Read note to self... again).

Whole different ballgame ALTOGETHER. Not the same amp AT ALL, right out of the box. It still works the same, circuit wise, in that its a goggle-eyed screaming animal at almost any volume settings, but this sucker sounds EXACTLY like a '71 Marshall built on the best day the assemblers at Marshall ever had EVER. NOW its got guts, balls, cut, sizzle, and the EXACT amount of sag an old Marshall would and should have... I hate to use the word perfect, but its PERFECT. Playing my LP without a pick yields the most dead-on Duane tone I've ever heard, short of the Fillmore recordings of Duane himself. If it was a vintage amp in a store for sale, I'd buy it at $500.00 above the current market price without hesitation. Its THAT good.

Years ago, I played thru a '71 metal front that sounded like God built it, and I've been searching for that tone ever since. This amp is better. Yep, better. Not only does it SOUND better, but Im sorta freaking out about it cause its THIS good, and its brand new. There are a few non-conventional items in there (like the adjustable NFB pot) and a cap or two. But, to my ears, and to how many tweaks this amp has had to get it to this point, the VAST majority of this amps tone IS the Metro-spec trannys. There is a REALLY big difference between the Metro heyboers and the Merc ToneClones. Neither is bad, actually both are great... they're just both really, really different.

If anyone wants to see a gut-shot, lemme know and Ill post it. Just dont ask me WTF this or that is, cause as I said, Im not an amp builder. Probably most of it will look stock, with the exception of the caps used to make it more Lead spec, and the bright volume cap is a .0047 Orange Drop, not the stock Silver Mica. It was universally deemed better sounding, though not stock Marshall spec.
Anyway, maybe this might help someone out there thinking about swapping the trannys on their 50 watt. I've read some threads about other iron, like Magnetics Corp, etc. I cant speak for them, and Im sure they make a great product too. This has been MY experience between Mercury ToneClones and Metro Heyboers.

Thats the long and short of it... kinda expensive, but at this point, impossibly sweet... just like Duanes tone!!
8) 8)

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by chrisom » Wed Nov 10, 2010 4:50 pm

Excellent; I bought the Metros instead of the Mercurys for my '67 100-watt build, though it's going to be a '68 build with '67 trannys. I bought NOS Mullard mustards and Lemcos and have the NFB pot ready also. I would love to see some nice close gut shots of your amp. Thanks!- co :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by axeman » Wed Nov 10, 2010 5:07 pm

Nice article with success, I would like to see a got shot, really sounds what I'm looking for.

Thanks

Art

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by OnTheFritz » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:15 am

Great dissertation there Fill. I thoroughly enjoyed reading this. :thumbsup:
If you want it to sound like the originals, they have to be built like the originals! No two ways about it.
Modern materials and construction methods including a high price tag, does not mean anything.
Not to knock MM's, because like you said it has it's merits and loads of people love them, but it's modern not vintage.
I dig old school! :jimi:
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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by Mars Hall » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:23 am

One of the things I miss from the "old Metro store". Now you can only buy their great iron in the kit. :shrug:
"You just slide a bottle up and down til what you want out of it comes out. You just slide away at it til you've got it down." Duane Allman

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by fillmore nyc » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:26 pm

Hey guys, thanks for the nice responses to my "dissertation" (Fritz!! :D ). My pleasure. Here are some gut shots, as promised.
Hope they help!!
Fill
8) 8)
Inside right showing zero-loss FX loop. (.0047 Orange Drop on Bright volume).
Gut shots of Metro, etc 051.JPG
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Close-up, inside right.
Gut shots of Metro, etc 058.JPG
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Close-up, inside left.
Gut shots of Metro, etc 059.JPG
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Last edited by fillmore nyc on Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by fillmore nyc » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:26 pm

A few more gut shots:
Inside left.
Gut shots of Metro, etc 052.JPG
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NFB pot. (1meg)
Gut shots of Metro, etc 057.JPG
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Full gut shot.
Gut shots of Metro, etc 053.JPG
(300.52 KiB) Downloaded 3615 times

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by axeman » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:14 pm

what value bright cap on the pot.

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by demonufo » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:39 pm

Nice post Ralph. Could have saved you a few quid if you'd asked though. :wink:

Nothing particular against Merc, but they're certainly not what I'd go for personally.
Didn't like 'em in 2204's, JTM45 RI's, or even a JCM900 Dual Reverb compared to the original transformer. I hated that amp before I even started working on it, but my the time I'd put the Merc in, it was even stiffer, and the harmonic content had dropped somewhat, and much like your findings, really, really hard sounding. Rather cold. Most disappointed, but the owner loved it. (Modern doomy metal player, who was more into the tightness! I'm surprised he didn't want me to up the filtering 10fold while I was there.:roll: )
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by fillmore nyc » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:04 pm

axeman wrote:what value bright cap on the pot.
.0047 Orange Drop.
demonufo wrote:Nice post Ralph. Could have saved you a few quid if you'd asked though. :wink:

Nothing particular against Merc, but they're certainly not what I'd go for personally.
Didn't like 'em in 2204's, JTM45 RI's, or even a JCM900 Dual Reverb compared to the original transformer. I hated that amp before I even started working on it, but my the time I'd put the Merc in, it was even stiffer, and the harmonic content had dropped somewhat, and much like your findings, really, really hard sounding. Rather cold. Most disappointed, but the owner loved it. (Modern doomy metal player, who was more into the tightness! I'm surprised he didn't want me to up the filtering 10fold while I was there.:roll: )
Well, thank GOD we deal in dollars and not quid, otherwise I'd REALLY be feelin' it!!! :lol: :lol:

No, seriously, I know what you mean. If I had listened to Dave and Jim at MetroAmp it woulda been the same thing, but you know the deal... sometimes ya just GOTTA burn your hand on the stove before you realize that everyone was right about it being hot!!

And your observation about the Mercs is right on... I mean, they DID sound real good, but if I had never heard the Metro Heyboers afterward, I would never have known that the Mercs ARE hard and somewhat cold in comparison, or maybe its more accurate to say that my head didnt wanna admit what my ears were hearing or the experts were saying!!
"CAMMAN!! They're Mercs... they GOTTA be better than, well... ANYTHING... (right??)"
:? :?

The guys at Mercury SWEAR that once they're broken in, they sound better than anything else (well, of COURSE they're gonna say that), but I didnt feel like putting 40 hours on them, and then find out that they're wrong. I mean, the way it sounded with the Mercs, I could have dialed that same tone in on my Soldano without a problem. I love my Soldano (for its own particular tone), but there is NO WAY I could get the tone thats coming out of this Metro now from the Soldano. Its just not in there.

Plus, the "window of opportunity" had just about shut as far as Jim being able to swap out the trannys for me. They have other commitments right now that take up just about all of their time, and like Mars Hall said earlier, they werent really too keen on just selling me the Metro iron and have my bud Richie in NY put them in.
Mars Hall wrote:One of the things I miss from the "old Metro store". Now you can only buy their great iron in the kit. :shrug:
In the end, Jim and Dave at Metro really bent over backwards for me, and I REALLY wanna thank them for all they did for me. Jim had built a Plexi with Heyboers right before he initially built mine, and said even HE didnt realize how great the Metro iron was until he heard MINE, with the Merc iron!!
Anyway, like I said, mine is not exactly a stock Metro kit at this point (Richie Johnson said he split the cathode on V1?? Some more Chinese for me, Im embarrassed to say :oops: ), but Im happy as shit with it now. I wouldnt change a thing on it.
The way the Bright and Normal volumes are SO different, and how they interact is a thing of beauty.
8) 8)

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by demonufo » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:08 pm

To be quite honest, I never really noticed much different going on in the 200 or so hours that I put on my Merc OT in my personal 2204, so I wouldn't hold out much faith in that anyways.
I should've kept the original Drake, but now I gots me a Marstran C1998 style (downsized) 50watt OT to drop in :twisted: . Been sitting on it for weeks waiting for the right opportunity. I'm real slack when it comes to my own amps. :oops:
So I like purple, okay!!!!!!

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by Mars Hall » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:23 pm

demonufo wrote:I should've kept the original Drake, but now I gots me a Marstran C1998 style (downsized) 50watt OT to drop in :twisted: . Been sitting on it for weeks waiting for the right opportunity. I'm real slack when it comes to my own amps. :oops:
I suspect Brian is reaping some benefit from the Metro store changes. :thumbsup:
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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by fillmore nyc » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:01 am

demonufo wrote:To be quite honest, I never really noticed much different going on in the 200 or so hours that I put on my Merc OT in my personal 2204, so I wouldn't hold out much faith in that anyways.
Thats exactly what I thought. I mean, the guys at Mercury were SUPER helpful when it came to advice about (their) product selection, the different results I'd see in which PT I chose relative to B+ voltage, etc. They were a bit vague about what to expect regarding break-in though: "The amp will sound more musical". What does THAT mean?? More open? Nope. More sag? Nope. I couldnt get a straight answer to that question, and I suspected that 40 or 400 hours later would not have made a significant enough difference from what I was hearing at that moment, cause to be really "vintage" sounding, the difference would have HAD to have been pretty dramatic.
demonufo wrote:I'm real slack when it comes to my own amps. :oops:
You?? :shock: :shock:

Man, you're one of the guys around here that Im in awe of, that you KNOW your way around the inside of an amp in the first place!!
Have you ever been to a REAL Indian restaurant? Im talking about the kind of place that you dont really see too many non-Indians... the kind of place where people who are actually from India know the food is good.
The menu in written in Indian, and there is one small sentence in English underneath, describing the meal to the occasional non-Indian that wanders in (me). That one sentence in English STILL leaves you scratching your head about WTF is in that dish, cause you REALLY dont belong in that restaurant, and every Indian in there knows it??
THATS me with amp internals. I say something like "split cathode", and its like "there goes Fill again, trying to sound like he knows whats on this menu". :lol:
Without a formal education in electronics theory, I cant IMAGINE how someone knows whats going on in there. Its just one of those things that eludes me, so I stick to guitars, speakers, and playing.
(Pizza, Pasta and Cannoli's for the sake of this analogy).
Eh, I been knowin' DAT my whole life, capisce??
:what:
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by chrisom » Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:32 am

Mmmm... Indian food. Been there 3 times. Ate the food. Came back, learned how to cook it myself. Make sure you try the Shahi Paneer. I bought the Metro trannys. Sounds like when it's done it will be complex in overtones like the food is in flavor... :lol: :drool: :drool:

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Re: Mercury vs MetroHeyboer in 50 watt Metro Plexi--My Verdi

Post by fillmore nyc » Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:35 am

chrisom wrote:Mmmm... Indian food. Been there 3 times. Ate the food. Came back, learned how to cook it myself. Make sure you try the Shahi Paneer.
See??? There ya go!! "Shahi Paneer. Sounds GREAT!! WTF IS it????????
If it was on a menu, the English sentence would say "It is Shahi prepared with Paneer". Still leaves me scratching my head...
:scratch: :scratch:

Seriously, I LOVE Indian food too. Its just a crap-shoot as to WHICH dish to order, and the waiters DO start losing their patience with all the questions:
Me: "Excuse me... can I ask you what Shahi Paneer is"??
Waiter: "You will like it... It is like Navratan Korma, except it is completely different".
:what: :what:
chrisom wrote:I bought the Metro trannys. Sounds like when it's done it will be complex in overtones like the food is in flavor... :lol: :drool: :drool:
Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program... Im SURE you're gonna love the Metro trannys. Complex overtones is THEIR native cuisine!!
(I dont know whats in there either, but I'll order it EVERY time!!)
:drool: :drool:

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