Metropoulos Forum

I have the 12000 series 68 built by George. I've been playing it with my Historic '57 Les Paul for months and it couldn't be more perfect. This past week I bought a Custom Shop '56 Strat Relic. I run the amp mostly dimed, adjusting the amp volume to change the gain.

With the Les Paul, it's perfect. With the strat it's downright annoying. Brashy, painfully bright, and thin. The neck position pickup with the guitar's tone brought to half is STILL brighter than the Les Paul bridge pickup. The bridge pickup on the strat stabs your eardrums like a knife.

So I remembered every photo I've ever seen of a strat player playing through a late '60s marshall shows that they have the channels jumpered. So I jumpered them and it made an enormous difference, balancing out the sound, though it did muddy up the low end in the neck position a bit more than I'd like.

My question is, with this period/type of amp and a strat, is jumpering pretty much necessary? And if so how would you deal with that for switching between a strat and a Les Paul, the latter I do NOT want jumpered? A foot switcher to break the signal of the channel jumper? Or do I need to bring down the 2nd channel volume every time I change to the Les Paul?

I'm sure a bunch of you have dealt with this, so your advice would be appreciated. And if anyone's bought a Custom Shop 50's era strat, I'd be curious if you've found you had replace some, most, or all of the electronics in it? The guitar itself (unplugged, listening to the wood) is gorgeous, has that bloom, love it.

Just for the record, what are the exact specs of your amp? Sorry, I'm not certain...

- shared or split cathode?
- bright cap on ch 1 volume?
- ch 1 coupling cap value - 0.022 or 0.0022?
- V2a bypass cap?

I have my '72 SL set up with a shared cathode (can switch to split, but prefer it shared), no volume bright cap, 0.022 channel 1 coupler and .68 V2a bypass cap. "Bastard" filtering with dual 50s for everything except PI and preamp which is dual 32s.

With my '60 CS Relic Strat, I think it sounds great! Fairly clear and bell-like on channel 1 with neck pickup, no jumpering. With a Les Paul, it really fattens up. Mind you this is with a 70 basketweave cab, original bass cone G12H30s, and Weber beam blockers. I've even thought about replacing the coupling cap to a 0.0022 for even less bass mud with the Strat, but I'm unsure how that would work with the Les Paul.

In all the years I've been tweaking these amps, I often had the same problem as you, so here's a few of the things I discovered that seemed to make the amp work well with *both* Strats and LPs:

- high quality preamp tubes!! You'd be surprised how much of the shrillness/ice-picky treble is down to bad tubes. It's not that the good NOS or used old stock tubes have *less* treble, it just sounds more musical, especially overdriven.

- good cab/speakers (obviously) with beam blockers.

- V2a bypass cap, contrary to what I thought, doesn't really make the amp any *brighter* per say. It has more "cut" and gain in the mids, but that tends to work well for both a Les Paul and Strat.

- tone stack: contrary to what I thought, a 33k/500 stack also does not sound brighter as such...it's slightly more peaked in the upper mids, but that doesn't really make it sound brighter as such, IMO. In fact, with the 56k/250 tone stack, I find that Les Pauls sound better through the normal input with treble, mids and presence set high, but that's too muddy yet for Strats, which generally sound better through the high treble channel. So I have bigger problems getting the same channel to work well for both guitars with the older (JTM45) tone stack than the later one.

But those are just some general observations. One thing you definitely want to do is wire your guitar so the second tone control is hooked up to the bridge pickup. This tones down the treble slightly on the bridge pickup. If you use a 5-way switch, you want the tone controls wired to neck and bridge pickup respectively. This also gives you more clarity on the second (neck+middle out of phase) position, since that position is now only seeing one tone pot. The Strat is wired with the tone pots to the neck and middle pickups respectively, stock.

With a split cathode amp I actually liked my Strat straight into the Normal channel, no jumper.....the loss of highs through the bright channel's components was perfect for a Strat, but you do have to keep the bass LOW to keep the mud away as much as possible!

Flames1950 wrote:With a split cathode amp I actually liked my Strat straight into the Normal channel, no jumper.....the loss of highs through the bright channel's components was perfect for a Strat, but you do have to keep the bass LOW to keep the mud away as much as possible!

thats cocka!
if i have strat that doenst mean i have to use the normal channel unless im just an old school classic rocker that shouldnt be playing a strat in the first place!

rockstah wrote:

Flames1950 wrote:With a split cathode amp I actually liked my Strat straight into the Normal channel, no jumper.....the loss of highs through the bright channel's components was perfect for a Strat, but you do have to keep the bass LOW to keep the mud away as much as possible!

thats cocka!
if i have strat that doenst mean i have to use the normal channel unless im just an old school classic rocker that shouldnt be playing a strat in the first place!

WTF Mark?????

I just stated what I liked. Where did I say you HAVE to do it this way UNLESS you're an old fart rocker??????

Sorry for having an opinion on what worked for me, I'll shut up and not contribute if that's in the best interest of our forum.........

whoa do some pushups or something.

shakti wrote:Just for the record, what are the exact specs of your amp? Sorry, I'm not certain...

- shared or split cathode?
- bright cap on ch 1 volume?
- ch 1 coupling cap value - 0.022 or 0.0022?
- V2a bypass cap?

I have my '72 SL set up with a shared cathode (can switch to split, but prefer it shared), no volume bright cap, 0.022 channel 1 coupler and .68 V2a bypass cap. "Bastard" filtering with dual 50s for everything except PI and preamp which is dual 32s.

With my '60 CS Relic Strat, I think it sounds great! Fairly clear and bell-like on channel 1 with neck pickup, no jumpering. With a Les Paul, it really fattens up. Mind you this is with a 70 basketweave cab, original bass cone G12H30s, and Weber beam blockers. I've even thought about replacing the coupling cap to a 0.0022 for even less bass mud with the Strat, but I'm unsure how that would work with the Les Paul.

In all the years I've been tweaking these amps, I often had the same problem as you, so here's a few of the things I discovered that seemed to make the amp work well with *both* Strats and LPs:

- high quality preamp tubes!! You'd be surprised how much of the shrillness/ice-picky treble is down to bad tubes. It's not that the good NOS or used old stock tubes have *less* treble, it just sounds more musical, especially overdriven.

- good cab/speakers (obviously) with beam blockers.

- V2a bypass cap, contrary to what I thought, doesn't really make the amp any *brighter* per say. It has more "cut" and gain in the mids, but that tends to work well for both a Les Paul and Strat.

- tone stack: contrary to what I thought, a 33k/500 stack also does not sound brighter as such...it's slightly more peaked in the upper mids, but that doesn't really make it sound brighter as such, IMO. In fact, with the 56k/250 tone stack, I find that Les Pauls sound better through the normal input with treble, mids and presence set high, but that's too muddy yet for Strats, which generally sound better through the high treble channel. So I have bigger problems getting the same channel to work well for both guitars with the older (JTM45) tone stack than the later one.

But those are just some general observations. One thing you definitely want to do is wire your guitar so the second tone control is hooked up to the bridge pickup. This tones down the treble slightly on the bridge pickup. If you use a 5-way switch, you want the tone controls wired to neck and bridge pickup respectively. This also gives you more clarity on the second (neck+middle out of phase) position, since that position is now only seeing one tone pot. The Strat is wired with the tone pots to the neck and middle pickups respectively, stock.

I have George's stock '68 12000 series head built by George with a Metro cab loaded with the Heritage 25 watters. I run it in the variac position. Beyond that, I don't build them so I can't answer about the details.

George? Can you shed any light on my dilemma.

Also, hey kids, no fighting in the pool.

Mushmouth

Hey, I never fight in the pool, I just piss in it when you're not looking.

Flames1950 wrote:Hey, I never fight in the pool, I just piss in it when you're not looking.

I was just about to ask if it was getting warm in here.

mushmouth wrote:

shakti wrote:Just for the record, what are the exact specs of your amp? Sorry, I'm not certain...

- shared or split cathode?
- bright cap on ch 1 volume?
- ch 1 coupling cap value - 0.022 or 0.0022?
- V2a bypass cap?

I have my '72 SL set up with a shared cathode (can switch to split, but prefer it shared), no volume bright cap, 0.022 channel 1 coupler and .68 V2a bypass cap. "Bastard" filtering with dual 50s for everything except PI and preamp which is dual 32s.

With my '60 CS Relic Strat, I think it sounds great! Fairly clear and bell-like on channel 1 with neck pickup, no jumpering. With a Les Paul, it really fattens up. Mind you this is with a 70 basketweave cab, original bass cone G12H30s, and Weber beam blockers. I've even thought about replacing the coupling cap to a 0.0022 for even less bass mud with the Strat, but I'm unsure how that would work with the Les Paul.

In all the years I've been tweaking these amps, I often had the same problem as you, so here's a few of the things I discovered that seemed to make the amp work well with *both* Strats and LPs:

- high quality preamp tubes!! You'd be surprised how much of the shrillness/ice-picky treble is down to bad tubes. It's not that the good NOS or used old stock tubes have *less* treble, it just sounds more musical, especially overdriven.

- good cab/speakers (obviously) with beam blockers.

- V2a bypass cap, contrary to what I thought, doesn't really make the amp any *brighter* per say. It has more "cut" and gain in the mids, but that tends to work well for both a Les Paul and Strat.

- tone stack: contrary to what I thought, a 33k/500 stack also does not sound brighter as such...it's slightly more peaked in the upper mids, but that doesn't really make it sound brighter as such, IMO. In fact, with the 56k/250 tone stack, I find that Les Pauls sound better through the normal input with treble, mids and presence set high, but that's too muddy yet for Strats, which generally sound better through the high treble channel. So I have bigger problems getting the same channel to work well for both guitars with the older (JTM45) tone stack than the later one.

But those are just some general observations. One thing you definitely want to do is wire your guitar so the second tone control is hooked up to the bridge pickup. This tones down the treble slightly on the bridge pickup. If you use a 5-way switch, you want the tone controls wired to neck and bridge pickup respectively. This also gives you more clarity on the second (neck+middle out of phase) position, since that position is now only seeing one tone pot. The Strat is wired with the tone pots to the neck and middle pickups respectively, stock.

I have George's stock '68 12000 series head built by George with a Metro cab loaded with the Heritage 25 watters. I run it in the variac position. Beyond that, I don't build them so I can't answer about the details.

George? Can you shed any light on my dilemma.

Also, hey kids, no fighting in the pool.

Mushmouth

well its easy for us to recommend stuff to shape a sound you want, but if you dont recognise the components then its more difficult. if you start getting familiar with the circuit board you will be able to drastically change your sound in a few minutes.

i use a strat with a 100 watt with my own specs straight in the treble input and its fine.

if you have a huge value bright cap and .68 bypass cap those would be my first culprits to change.

this stuff's easy to change, if you take the plunge...

That's just the thing though, it is THE best sounding amp I've ever heard with my Les Paul, so changing the amp isn't going to happen. I'm either going to fix the strat or sell it and try a different one.

mushmouth wrote:That's just the thing though, it is THE best sounding amp I've ever heard with my Les Paul, so changing the amp isn't going to happen. I'm either going to fix the strat or sell it and try a different one.

+1 see whats up with them pickups in thy strat.

Yeah do experiment with your pickups first. Stock fender pickups are far better than they were in the past, but Fender doen'st have a custom shop for nothing and the likes of Lindy Frahlin (Sp?) and others have carved out a great niche for themselves because their PU's just plain leave stock units in the dust. I've tried three sets of different aftermarket pickups in my strat. Fender Texas Specials sounded almost P-90 like. I'm using Frahlins now. My guess is that most aftermarket humbuckers have been designed with Marshalls or Marshall style amps in mind. I don't think that Marshall amps are the first thing on the mind of gents designing most strat PU's. I have had to spend so much more effort to find a strat PU combination that works with my Marshall than my Les Paul, and I'm still not satisfied. It ain't easy. These days I'm just coming to terms with the fact that the Strat and Marshall have their own character I just have to accept it as it is and adjust accordingly.

rockstah wrote:

mushmouth wrote:That's just the thing though, it is THE best sounding amp I've ever heard with my Les Paul, so changing the amp isn't going to happen. I'm either going to fix the strat or sell it and try a different one.

+1 see whats up with them pickups in thy strat.

I just took the guitar into the local guitar store and compared it to several strats and it was thinner and more brittle than the others. There happened to be a guy in there who owns a couple of real 60s strats and he checked it out and suggested the same thing, since everything else about the guitar, weight, wood, feel, sounds great unplugged -- all seemed excellent to him. He also speculated the pickups in the guitar were the custom shop's attempt at emulating the pickups in a '56, which would A) not likely be all that accurate and B) be emulating a period of those pickups that isn't necessarily ideal for what I want (hendrix/SRV) out of it and what I'm playing it through. He seemed convinced pickups would fix it.

So what pickups to get? That guy recommended looking for the Hendrix pickups made by Kinman pickups. Though I've never heard of them, so other suggestions for what I'm looking tonally would be much appreciated. It's worth a try before just selling it and trying a different guitar. I love the guitar itself...

mushmouth wrote:

rockstah wrote:

mushmouth wrote:That's just the thing though, it is THE best sounding amp I've ever heard with my Les Paul, so changing the amp isn't going to happen. I'm either going to fix the strat or sell it and try a different one.

+1 see whats up with them pickups in thy strat.

I just took the guitar into the local guitar store and compared it to several strats and it was thinner and more brittle than the others. There happened to be a guy in there who owns a couple of real 60s strats and he checked it out and suggested the same thing, since everything else about the guitar, weight, wood, feel, sounds great unplugged -- all seemed excellent to him. He also speculated the pickups in the guitar were the custom shop's attempt at emulating the pickups in a '56, which would A) not likely be all that accurate and B) be emulating a period of those pickups that isn't necessarily ideal for what I want (hendrix/SRV) out of it and what I'm playing it through. He seemed convinced pickups would fix it.

So what pickups to get? That guy recommended looking for the Hendrix pickups made by Kinman pickups. Though I've never heard of them, so other suggestions for what I'm looking tonally would be much appreciated. It's worth a try before just selling it and trying a different guitar. I love the guitar itself...

if the guitar feels good then try some pickups - take a visit over to seymour duncan and start reading specs.