Marshall Black Flag help

[gtomax]

Picked up an early black flag JTM50 and there are some things that have me questioning its legitimacy. Hoping the collective experience here can help me out.

The amp itself is an aluminum end block chassis so already it's going to be a very early JTM50 (though almost all were steel to my understanding) could be in the early transition. It has 784-129 OT and 118 PT original. Preamp tubes were the original mullards, power tubes look like 80's Marshall EL34M replacements. The seller said to have had the amp since the 90s and never made any mods. Cosmetically very clean with a white plastic Marshall logo on the head cab and clean tolex. It has all of its original parts like its bulgin cable, tube shields, nothing is bent/obviously beat up so overall it seems to make sense as a great condition very early JTM50.

The amp:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... WszTDN6MzA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... 1dLaUg4R2c
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... VU0Z01xQ0U

Here are the issues:

1. The serial number. I've never seen a Marshall with this kind of serial which in itself is iffy. It seems to say "19604" but in a font that I've not seen on an early amp. I've never owned a 10,000 series amp but it's a different font for sure. This back panel looks original and clean with a window where the serial # is. I can't tell if 10000 series white numbers were on a sticker or on paper under the plexi panel. This serial # is on paper between the plexi panel and the aluminum chassis.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... HpPelo1QmM
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... jVhLWFqazQ

2. The OT. It's a period correct 784-128 transformer and the end bells haven't been messed with - the cheesehead screws are clean. Wanted to verify that the holes by the OT are for the fuse holder of the older amps, I believe they are:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... FdqM3A5ams
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... XlhazZKems

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... HFrZ0xQVEU
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... VV0NmJoZk0
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... HNLUjFnSDQ

3. The input jack, bright channel has a red jumper wire not a pink like the originals I've seen. The solder paint (light orange) looks intact but a sharpie could do that. Maybe they ran out of pink wire...

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6D4m ... TJ0NjV1LW8

4. The head case feet are the wide hockey puck type feet not the grey plexi feet. It's not the 70's type with the plastic bubble it looks like a maybe 2 inch wide thick rubber hockey puck.

What do y'all think? The thing that has me most confused is that serial number thing.

[gtomax]

Update: on Amp Archives I found serial #2037 with aluminum block end chassis and in chassis fuse holder so that's a positive on the transitional nature of this amp/the possibility it was drilled but never used at the factory.

It also has red jumpers on the input jacks it seems.

http://www.amparchives.com/folder/2288/

So my only remaining question is on this serial number.

If it were faked, why would they pick something so unplausible? Was the original 10000 series # printed on paper beneath the plexi panel like this one is or was it a taped on or glued over/varnished/sticker on top?

[Tazin]

From what I can see the amp looks pretty legit. One odd thing is the 16uF/500v preamp filter cap whereas most other amps like this one tend to have a 32uF/450v cap. The rear plexi panel looks authentic and the hand written serial number is probably legit. The "black flag" amps tend to have the "window style" serial number which is a printed number on paper adhered to the back side of the rear plexi panel.

[gtomax]

Thanks for the info!

Wondering if anyone has ever seen an inked serial like this. I know 66/67 was all over the place and these amps are scarce so hard to tell...

Guessing by the chassis I'm thinking it's one of the very first with a gold back. If the rest of the amp is legit (seems so) then maybe this was an early and then abandoned serial numbering scheme.

[Roe]

Tazin is the expert here

[Tazin]

@ Roe: Thanks for the kind words but I don't think I've reached the "expert" status yet.

I haven't seen another hand written serial number like on your amp but I've seen a couple of dymo labeled ones. One had the label over a "window" style rear panel and another had the label over a normal rear panel that would normally be stamped. Your amp does look like one of the early "black flag" transition models using the gold rear panel but I would hesitate from stating it as the first.

[neikeel]

I have a similar era amp. Mine has same chassis and transformers but a white rear panel. There used to be pics of It here before photobucket crapped out.

Just saw the thread properly (not on my phone)

The amp 2037 is my amp!

I actually think that it was originally a JMP front panel (you see a few of these with white rear panel and serials in the high 1900s and low 2000 range) with ally block chassis and 784-128 OT. a lot of people think that they are JTM45s because of the white rear which is quite wrong.

Your pictures will not open for me so I cannot comment on how original I think it is. I have never seen a gold rear panel block end 50w. I did have a JTM45/100 block end with gold rear panel. They had the window type serial number and the big font black on white serial lettering.

[Roe]

Seems authentic then. I'd trust these guys

[neikeel]

The jumpers on the jacks on mine are orange wires (both) and the ground wires are blue, I have seen this before.
I think the red one on yours has probably been redone.
The amp looks in very good nick, minus the HT fuse.
I do however think that the rear panel serial tag is not genuine, but just my 2c.

May be drop me a pm if you don't mind admitting how much you paid.
I am thinking about selling mine (very reluctantly) although might sell a '69 JMP50 or '65 JTM45 first.

[gtomax]

One is pink and one is red/dark orange but the solder doesn't look disturbed. Factory might have run out of pink wire for the jumper or something, either way I don't think I'll mess with that. The grounds are one blue and one green.

The HT fuse on the back panel is original (as are both of the RS fuses) so my thought is this was a spare JTM 45 chassis they fitted the 128/EL's in and sent on its way.

[gtomax]

The odd thing about the serial tag is the application of it seems like it could be genuine and if one were to fake it, why choose something so obviously not possibly original? I guess no one will ever know.

After removing the non-stock ceramic bright cap it's a whole new animal and sounds as good as a plexi should. Previously channel 1 was too shrill and channel 2 had a blanket on it. My tinnitus reports it's now a proper '67 Marshall.

[neikeel]

You will see mine came with a 100pF RS ceramic rod, certainly not shrill, but with the other cap combos it is very smooth and has been my go to gigging amp for a couple of years although recently been using a JTM45 because of stage volumes.

[Tazin]

I checked through some of my notes and it looks like Marshall mixed block end style chassis's with folded steel chassis's for the roughly first 15 JTM50's. So, there are block end chassis's out there with gold rear panels along with "black flag" JTM front panels for the 50w. I've seen orange, pink, and red wires used for the Input jumper links along with green, blue, and black Input to ground buss link wires on the early JTM50's.

[gtomax]

Thanks so much, great to know!

I plugged in and spent some time to compare it with my early 68 JMP 50.

The 67 is brighter with great harmonics and plenty of grind. The 68 is more immediate feeling and more touch sensitive with a rounder fuller sound. It does actually feel like an 'evolution' of the 67.

Both are great for their own thing, raw or sweet.

I'm satisfied it is legit and not worrying about the inked serial tag. It's glued in as if original and the back panel doesn't seem to have been off but in any case that part faces the wall when you play it with the rest of the circuit original, intact and plausible I'm happy.

Thanks all!