Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

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Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:16 am

Here, you can post your guitar theory questions. (Modern Western)
I will try to answer TTBOMK with either TAB and/or video examples so
you can directly see how it is executed and with the technique being used.
This new found knowledge should give you the motivation to make a great sounding demo
of your newly built or modded amp !

Try not to get discouraged, because with help and a little guidance
(from either myself, alumni or my Berklee colleagues on this forum)
you will get out of your rutt and on your way to being not just a guitar player, but a Musician.
3 or 30 years. If you ever wondered, just ask.

~Jimmie
M.I./G.I.T. '83
RIP Mark Abrahamian-rockstah -classmate/roommate
RIP Ben Wise -StuntDouble- comrade-in-arms

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by rgorke » Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:17 pm

Thanks for the offer!!!!
"If you make a mistake, do it twice and smile and let people think you meant it." Jan Van Halen.

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by rgorke » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:19 pm

I posted this over in the gear section but it might be more appropriate here. Satch does a great job of outlining some areas to work on by doing a lesson with this guy.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFK-0ifBQo[/youtube]

ps, why don't my youtube links show up as video screens?
"If you make a mistake, do it twice and smile and let people think you meant it." Jan Van Halen.

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:53 pm

rgorke wrote:

ps, why don't my youtube links show up as video screens?
I think the way the protocol is written is with the normal http://www.video.com code.

So from this: http://youtu.be/GvFK-0ifBQo
to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvFK-0ifBQo
RIP Mark Abrahamian-rockstah -classmate/roommate
RIP Ben Wise -StuntDouble- comrade-in-arms

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:39 pm

Excellent vid. Lucky guy, too. Now he knows how Steve Vai sponged.
He does great with teaching. I like how active he is with Line6's lesson department.

Another Great Teacher in this department, rockstah !
...and staying with Satch;
Mark uses examples here that Joe elaborates on in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0qLKHnflo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
He uses a simple 2 chord progression with a drone string to distinctly separate each mode in how they sound in contrast.
Giving short lead examples over each chord progression, using it in context and focuses
on the dominant intervals of each individual Mode that makes the Mode sound the way it does.

Ionian
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 31266&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dorian
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 31246&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Phrygian
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 31233&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lydian
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 31212&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Moixlydian
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 31189&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Aeolian
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 31166&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Locrian
http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... 22547&q=hi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
RIP Mark Abrahamian-rockstah -classmate/roommate
RIP Ben Wise -StuntDouble- comrade-in-arms

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 5:13 am

This will be a good thread. I know very little about guitar theory. Classical piano turned me off of it as a kid. I can visualize how some might be played, but its not that easy with complicated passages. Never too late to learn.

Those Rockstah examples are pretty neat. I saw the Satriani vid the other day as well. What describes to the guy about sitting back with the drummer is great. Being up close to Satriani last month really made me understand how he has a complete idea of what's he's doing. The notes are tied together with changes that appeals to anyone regardless if your a musician of not.

Maybe I just need another orange guitar?
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by stef » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:22 pm


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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:28 am

So when guys say know your modes from every "position". What exactly does that mean? I've looked at stuff from Rusty Cooley.....man...thats way over my head!!!!!!
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by rgorke » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:26 pm

This video helped me to understand the modes more. Just one scale, the major, everything else builds off of that....

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiVHEPjtJic[/youtube]
"If you make a mistake, do it twice and smile and let people think you meant it." Jan Van Halen.

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:14 pm

Diatonically,
The simplest way I can explain in a physical sense is to use a Piano.
Both are in concert C.
Middle C as a reference point and the C scale using just the white keys renders CDEFGAB octave C.
So now knowing this formula in relation to a guitar neck and to how a Major scale is built, one knows all the Modes.


Converting the notes to a numbered format, then you would have 12345671.

Image

6 string root example
Image

Ionian
12345671

Dorian
23456712

Phrygian
34567123

Lydian
45671234

Mixolydian
56712345

Aeolian
67123456

Locrian
71234567

"...So when guys say know your modes from every "position". What exactly does that mean?..."
Know one position for all positions. IOW the mathematics and fundamentals are the same for every key in "every position" :wink:

It is here and side-by-side one can plainly see where ALL the sharp's-#'s and flat's-b's are in comparison to the One...

Ionian
|--1--|----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
Dorian
|--2--|----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|

Compared to the One by simply placing it underneath to see the intervals.
The 2 scale or Dorian Mode has a flat 3rd and a flat 7th easily seen here.
This is how the 2 Dorian scale has a b3 & a b7
(This also falls under the Circle of 5th's mystery know how many sharps & flats in a scale.)
Ionian 1. |--1--|----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|----|--5--|----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
Dorian 2. |--1--|----|--2--|-b3-|------|--4--|----|--5--|----|--6--|-b7-|-----|--1--|

Now that we know EVERYTHING is actually compared to the 1, one can easily figure out the formulas to all the seven modes.

The 3 Phrygian scale easily seen has a b2, b3, b6 & b7
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|----|--5--|-----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
3. |--1--|-b2-|------|-b3-|-----|--4--|----|--5--|-b6-|-----|-b7-|-----|--1--|

Looky here, the 4 Lydian scale has a #4
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
4. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|-----|-#4-|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|

Mixolydian with a b7 (Known as the Dominant 7th)
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
5. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|-b7-|-----|--1--|

Aeolian b3, b6 & b7
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
6. |--1--|-----|--2--|-b3-|------|--4--|-----|--5--|-b6-|----|-b7-|-----|--1--|

Locrian b2, b3, b5, b6 & b7
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
7. |--1--|-b2-|------|-b3-|-----|--4--|-b5-|------|-b6-|-----|-b7-|----|--1--|

_______________________________________________________________
QuickView

(M=Major. P=Perfect. R=Root)
1. |--1--|-----|-M2-|-----|-M3-|-P4-|-----|-P5--|-----|-M6-|----|-M7-|--1--|
2. |-R1--|-----|--2--|-b3-|-----|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-b7-|----|--1--|
3. |-R1--|-b2-|------|-b3-|-----|--4--|-----|--5--|-b6-|-----|-b7-|----|--1--|
4. |-R1--|----|--2--|-----|--3--|-----|-#4-|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
5. |-R1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|----|--5--|-----|--6--|-b7-|-----|--1--|
6. |-R1--|-----|--2--|-b3-|-----|--4--|-----|--5--|-b6-|-----|-b7-|-----|--1--|
7. |-R1--|-b2-|------|-b3-|-----|--4--|-b5-|-----|-b6-|-----|-b7-|-----|--1--|
___

|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|
|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|
|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|
|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|
|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|
|--7--|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|

In knowing this, one will know the identity of ALL the Modes since we know that the make up of a minor scale or chord has a b3.
(Arpeggios, Chord building and chord structure also derive from all this)


So:
Ionian.........(Maj) ............ 1234567
Dorian.........(min) ........... 2345671
Phrygian......(min) ........... 3456712
Lydian.........(Maj) ........... 4567123
Mixolydian....(Maj/Dom7) ... 5671234
Aeolian........(min) ........... 6712345
Locrian........(dim) ............7123456

1. CMaj or Maj7th
2. Dmin
3. Emin
4. FMaj
5. GMaj or Dominant7th
6. Amin or relative minor
7. Bmin7b5 or diminished
(Western music utilizes Diminished, Augmented, Melodic & Harmonic minors)
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:21 pm

Ok, thats making sense. I just visualize with my ear everything in half, full step and 2 full step increments.

:thumbsup:
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by rgorke » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:35 pm

Ok here is a question from a different thread that may be helpful for this one...
rgorke wrote:Very coolio!!!

thanks for sharing. What might be helpful for us mere mortals is to do some 'splainin' with your improv. IOW, Ed or whomever, is playing this outro in X key or over these chords, as I see it. I am playing these modes and/or arppegios over the said chords.

Makes it edumacational.
http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42149" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"If you make a mistake, do it twice and smile and let people think you meant it." Jan Van Halen.

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:41 pm

vanhalen5150 wrote:Ok, thats making sense. I just visualize with my ear everything in half, full step and 2 full step increments.

:thumbsup:
Yes !
Your #'s & b's are seen when you compare to the 1 which can be seen in this manner of Whole & half steps:
|---W--|----|---W--|-----|-h----|--W--|---|------W------|---|--W--|-----|---h--|-------|
|-(C)1-|----|-(D)2-|-----|-(E)3-|-(F)4-|---|-----(G)5----|---|-(A)6-|----|-(B)7-|-(C)1-|
|-Maj-|----|-min--|-----|-min-|-Maj--|---|-Maj/Dom7-|---|-min-|----|-dim--|--Maj-|
|-Ion--|----|-dor--|-----|-phr--|-Lyd--|---|------Mix----|---|--aeo-|----|-loc--|-Ion---|

Ionian
W W h W W W h
2 2 1 2 2 2 1

Dorian
W h W W W h W
2 1 2 2 2 1 2

Phrygian
Lydian
h W W W h W W
1 2 2 2 1 2 2

Lydian
W W W h W W h
2 2 2 1 2 2 1

Mixolydian
W W h W W h W
2 2 1 2 2 1 2

Aeolian
W h W W h W W
2 1 2 2 1 2 2

Locrian
h W W h W W W
1 2 2 1 2 2 2
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:19 am

rgorke wrote:Ok here is a question from a different thread that may be helpful for this one...
rgorke wrote:Very coolio!!!

thanks for sharing. What might be helpful for us mere mortals is to do some 'splainin' with your improv. IOW, Ed or whomever, is playing this outro in X key or over these chords, as I see it. I am playing these modes and/or arppegios over the said chords.

Makes it edumacational.
http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=42149" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(The song originally is in Drop Dead D. I used Amazing Slow Downer to pitch shift up to Eb and played along.)

Focusing on the outro, it pedals on 2 chords.
It's as simple as Eric Clapton's Cocaine in another key.
The chords D Maj & C Maj.

For the noodling, I referenced the major scale and seen that there was a place where two Majors are back-to-back or next to each other.
That would be the 4 & the 5. D is the 5 and C is the 4.
Knowing this I would now know what the 1 is, which is G or G Major.
Then the 5 is Mixolydian and the 4 Lydian.

This is looking at it in a modal/diatonic way, of course.
In my head I see the G Major as my home and utilize everything within.
So, I paint the canvas with G Major left hand technique, maybe a little C Lydian scale then a D Dominant 7th arpeggio.
I didn't forget my Pentatonic's, either. I have 6 I can choose from. 3 Major & 3 minor.
Then I have Blues Pentatonic I can use and several other variations all that sound "right"

The 1,4 & 5 Modes are all Major and the 2,3 & 6 Modes are minor.
Pulling up a neck graph in G Major I can see that if I find the 2,3 & 6 on the fretboard the exact same minor Pentatonic shape appears on each. This also allows me to split positions playing two shapes at once with either left or right hand technique.

The trick is how to blend these shapes so they don't sound pieced together as short ideas.
Once these modes under your belt it will be much easier to express and how others are getting their ideas.
RIP Mark Abrahamian-rockstah -classmate/roommate
RIP Ben Wise -StuntDouble- comrade-in-arms

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:45 am

Are the fretboard patterns as you listed above angles because thats how the appear moving up the neck? I've been learning them all from the same position in G for now. Just 2 octaves. And is the root the same for all of those as listed?

So "1" is the root on those?
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