Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:11 am

Ok. I see how "1" follows through on those. Got that.

Maybe I should have learned this 30 years ago?
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by rgorke » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:43 am

It's NEVER too late...

Here is another video that helps explain things. As Jimi explains here:
So:
Ionian.........(Maj) ............ 1234567
Dorian.........(min) ........... 2345671
Phrygian......(min) ........... 3456712
Lydian.........(Maj) ........... 4567123
Mixolydian....(Maj/Dom7) ... 5671234
Aeolian........(min) ........... 6712345
Locrian........(dim) ............7123456
If you are a minor pentatonic guy, you can use different pentatonic scales that all "work". In the DDL example in GMajor, you could use Am, Bm, and Em pentatonic since they are the 2, 3, and 6 of Gmajor.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sm_VSjadCiU[/youtube]
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Thu Oct 31, 2013 6:57 am

Satriani on modes. The E droning thing seems to make sense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0qLKHnflo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci2h5hgBgCM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Fri Nov 01, 2013 12:35 am

rgorke wrote:"...It's NEVER too late..."
:rock:
rgorke wrote:"...If you are a minor pentatonic guy, you can use different pentatonic scales that all "work". In the DDL example in GMajor, you could use Am, Bm, and Em pentatonic since they are the 2, 3, and 6 of Gmajor..."
yeayea, aint that kool, man ?!!!. You can play the minor scales and Pentatonics and utilize the entire neck incorporating different techniques.
Take a look at these shapes. These are just the first patterns of each Pentatonic shape.
Pull up a fretboard pic of a all 5 shapes/patterns connected to see which way you want to route your fingering and build your on soloing.
Image

Some are wondering "How do you know that Dorian is minor and not a Major?" ...or Mixolydian not a minor ?
There's a simple formula for this. All minors have a flat third - b3.
If you look at the construction of a 2,3 & 6 scales you should notice that indeed they all have flatted 3rd's.
The 1, 4 & 5 scales are all Major. All their thirds are untouched leaving the last 7th scale,also a minor, but a diminished due to the flat fifth - b5 (The one & only place that happens.)

Here they are again:

b2,b3, & b7 (but this minor has a Major 6th)
Ionian 1. |--1--|----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|----|--5--|----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
Dorian 2. |--1--|----|--2--|-b3-|-----|--4--|----|--5--|----|--6--|-b7-|-----|--1--|

The 3 Phrygian scale; easily seen, has a b2, b3, b6 & b7
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|----|--5--|-----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
3. |--1--|-b2-|------|-b3-|-----|--4--|----|--5--|-b6-|-----|-b7-|-----|--1--|

Looky here, the 4 Lydian scale has a #4 (no other mode with #4)
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
4. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|-----|-#4-|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|

Mixolydian with a b7 (Known as the Dominant 7th)
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
5. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|-b7-|-----|--1--|

Aeolian also known as the relative minor - b3, b6 & b7
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
6. |--1--|-----|--2--|-b3-|------|--4--|-----|--5--|-b6-|----|-b7-|-----|--1--|

Locrian b2, b3, b5, b6 & b7 (Diminished due to the flat fifth - b5)
1. |--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|----|--6--|----|--7--|--1--|
7. |--1--|-b2-|------|-b3-|-----|--4--|-b5-|------|-b6-|-----|-b7-|----|--1--|
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:11 am

:clap:

:shock:
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:14 am

This great stuff. I'm wondering is this is also along the lines of Petrucci's scale fragment ideas?
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by FL6 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:29 am

I found this tut to be the easiest of all the mode lessons.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uhN5h1o7ww[/youtube]

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by rgorke » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:40 am

One of the things I have been working on is droning the E like Satch described. So, if I want to hear Lydian for example, I use this major scale fingering and counting 2 1/2 steps (5 half steps or frets) back diatonically to go from E Lydian to B Major. Then starting on the E in that B Major scale (yellow Smudge) I play the B Major fingering noting that the purple smudge is the #4 creating the Lydian sound. This helps me hear the lydian sound and also begin to see how lydian looks on the finger board.
Major scale fingering,E lyd.JPG
Major scale fingering,E lyd.JPG (10.32 KiB) Viewed 939 times
Hope this makes sense.
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by FL6 » Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:46 am

^^^Yeah totally makes sense. The video above your post explains it the same way. Use an E drone and then move that E major scale shape around.

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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by rgorke » Fri Nov 01, 2013 10:03 am

FL6 wrote:I found this tut to be the easiest of all the mode lessons.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uhN5h1o7ww[/youtube]
Exactly what I just tried to explain, probably better. My example is the E is the fourth note (lydian) of B major.
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by vanhalen5150 » Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:56 am

Petrucci scale fragment improvisation. Neat stuff to just pull of from the top of your head.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7kwcK7kITY[/youtube]
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by rgorke » Sat Nov 02, 2013 10:41 am

I found this site that is good for confirming that one is playing the right notes per figuring out a mode.

http://www.scalerator.com/cgi-bin/sdisp ... BE&size=30
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:41 am

rgorke wrote:"...Here is another video that helps explain things. As Jimi explains here:
So:
Ionian.........(Maj) ............ 1234567
Dorian.........(min) ........... 2345671
Phrygian......(min) ........... 3456712
Lydian.........(Maj) ........... 4567123
Mixolydian....(Maj/Dom7) ... 5671234
Aeolian........(min) ........... 6712345
Locrian........(dim) ............7123456
O.K. so I know how to identify what makes a minor a minor and a Major a Major with the key note being the 3rd.
I can now see what my minors are & what my Majors are. It reveals 3 Majors & 3 minors and 1 diminished.
Well how does this come to order?
So, again, I convert to numbers. The C,E & G are 1,3 & 5.
Now, with the mighty pen & paper, I plot out the C major scale; renaming the letters to numbers across the entire neck;
but for this example all I needed were the first 3 strings for Triad's.
I decided to write & compose a song using simple voicings of 1,3,5. This is my C,E,G. (*Taking notice that these are built on 3rds.)

Using the 1's, 3's & 5's, my root voicing has a make-up of 5,1,3.
So, knowing this, I have a sequence of chords that shift perfectly & diatonically in key.
This gives me "Chord Melody"

My charted path should be as follows. Here are my Triad's:
513 - CEG = C Ionian ________ Major
624 - DFA = D Dorian ________ minor
735 - EGB = E Phrygian ______ minor
146 - FAC = F Lydian_________ Major
257 - GBD = G Mixolydian ____ Maj/Dominant 7th
361 - ACE = A Aeolian ________minor
472 - BDF = B Locrian ________diminished

Image


Here's another quick example with familiar 5-string bar chords voiced 15135 :wink:

Image

O.K. Now I have structure. With my Chord Melody I am able to write songs with body & texture.
I can choose voicings custom to my song, choosing whether to use one, a few, or all custom chords in my writing.
You could also assign (dual) harmony guitars with as simple as single note harmonies with each guitar playing an assigned note either up in 6th's, 7th's, 9th's, 11th's, 13th's etc
So:
1 3 5 7, 2 4 6 1, 3 5 7 2 etc.
Or:
1 5 9 11, 2 6 10 12, 3 7 11 13 etc.

The more options you have in chord melody the better and more precise your thoughts can be transferred on to the fretboard. For ex. If you are composing a song with a part that seems to sound right, but too dark sounding, you can change the voicing to have a lighter color. See what sounds best out of your possible combinations.
135 or 513 or 351 etc.
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by NY Chief » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:01 pm

JimiJames wrote:[Image

Ugh, this makes my head hurt..BUT I DO see some recognizable stuff in there! I cant't watch the vids from work but I'm sure when I get to see them more wil make sense. Being a mostly self taught, learnt it in the gutter player I first want to understand what I'm doing in the box pentatonic and it's extensions. I see here what we were talking about a while ago, JJ. Thanks!!!

How do the different scale modes with sharps / flats etc relate to the circle of fifth's ? Coincidence or are they from the same theory? Sorry you asked for dumb questions, you'll get 'em!

GREAT idea for a thread, Jimi J!!!
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Re: Guitar: Theoretically Speaking

Post by JimiJames » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:57 pm

I know you see those familiar Blues Pentatonic riffs starting to appear there, Chieffy. That's Good ! More coming up ! :rocker:

O.K. pay no attention to this diagram...
Image

In this diagram:
Image

How it works; is that starting from C, and up to it's 5th, is G. This starts to add #'s (mathematically)
The G scale compare to the C scale you can see where the sharp appears.
Major Scale formula : 221-2221 or
|--W--|----|--W--|----|--H--|--W--|----|--W--|----|--W--|----|--H--|--1--|
__________________________________________________________________
So this is how G get's the 1 sharp when you write out the formula for G Major ...
|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
|--G--|-----|--A--|----|--B--|--C--|-----|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|-F#-|--G--|

Image


....and when that happens NOW is when you see it written on a music staff.
Write it out like the Circle of 5th's, you would see ALL the Sarps & Flats written in sheet music.
Take a look at G with 1 lonely sharp and look where it is placed. right on the F !

Image

Now take a look at the 2nd cycle, D.
Moving a 5th up from G is D, and that now has 2#'s
So this is how D get's 2 sharp's when you write out the formula for D Major ... :wink:
|--1--|-----|--2--|-----|--3--|--4--|-----|--5--|-----|--6--|-----|--7--|--1--|
|--D--|-----|--E--|-----|-F#-|--G--|-----|--A--|-----|--B--|-----|-C#-|--D--|
Now look at the graph... F&C are #'s ! :shock:
I bet you're able to get the rest on your own ! :clap:
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