1Hz, 2Hz, 4Hz and 8Hz ... makes more sense now, and matches better with what I got on the simulator ...
thanks for that info Dave
I also simulated an op-amp based phase-shift (3-phase) sine-wave oscillator and verified that I could get varying degrees of amplitude by adjusting the number of limiting diodes (pretty obvious ..) ... or using Zener diodes
is the waveform shape part of the effect ? .. I would think not (but perhaps it is ...)
following is the approach I would take if I were to recreate the effect using transistors instead of tubes ...
the idea is to separate the 3-phase oscillator FUNCTION from the modulator
it is interesting how the two concepts work together in the tube version
but something tells me to separate them for sake of flexibility ... (making things easier on us, I think...)
by doing this separation I'm now allowing the oscillator outputs to go thru 3-ganged pots and provide intensity control
on the modulating waveform ... such triple stack pots are available, tho a little pricey
I'm also able to scale back the max signal amplitude thru a dividing resistor to each pot head
this way we can precisely match against modulating device characteristics (mainly Vp if we're using jFET's)
to get full modulation range on each of the four blocks
so, double advantage separating the oscillator from the modulator circuitry ...
the modulator would be based on n-channel jFET's (eg., the common 2n5457)
and would require 3 properly matched device per modulator block
4 sets of 3 ... each set matched to itself (don't need 12 matched the same)
more on this too ...
so far, I've been able to redraw complete circuit sections using standard op-amp gain blocks
the only part that would remain class-A (single ended) would be the modulator sections
everything else, vanilla op-amp design
the only thing that is stumping me a little at this point is the inductor/cap "tank" combos ...
their purpose seems to be to allow certain mid-band frequencies to pass, and shunt outside that
maybe you could explain what the deal is with these L-C pairs
many thanks
~jcm
Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
Moderators: VelvetGeorge, BUG
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Eb7+9
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
Last edited by Eb7+9 on Sat Nov 07, 2015 1:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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daveweyer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
Eb, glad you could join up! I'll cover that material in a post coming up shortly. Just wanted to welcome you aboard--I hope I speak for all the forum members.
I'll need to re-read your post a few times to make sure I get what you are saying.
I'll need to re-read your post a few times to make sure I get what you are saying.
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Xplorer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
Welcome JC !
about the pictures, we can't really post them anymore, because the forum was once hacked. now what we do is that we post them on some sites like imgur, flickr etc , and then we use their link here, with "Img" html stuff so they can be displayed here.
but indeed, it should be a good idea to split this thread and do a specific "tube modulator" thread.
Dave, i'll post the 6ca7 pictures in the 6550 thread maybe, to let you guys talk about the tube modulator.
about the pictures, we can't really post them anymore, because the forum was once hacked. now what we do is that we post them on some sites like imgur, flickr etc , and then we use their link here, with "Img" html stuff so they can be displayed here.
but indeed, it should be a good idea to split this thread and do a specific "tube modulator" thread.
Dave, i'll post the 6ca7 pictures in the 6550 thread maybe, to let you guys talk about the tube modulator.
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daveweyer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
Okay everybody, hold onto your guitar straps--this may be a bit grizzly.
Theory of the tube modulator:
The input signal is put through a single stage tube amplifier directly coupled to the grid of a cathode follower which is capacitively coupled to a volume control of 50K, the combination giving you a low impedance signal 180 deg out of phase with the input signal having a maximum gain of about 70. None of this is shown on the original schematic.
The resultant signal is coupled to the grid of V100 where it is amplified and coupled to the second half of V100 which is used as a phase inverter (the same as in your Marshall) with the plate and cathode outputs being 180 deg out of phase with each other.
Each of these signals are shifted in phase by a network of parallel RC circuits in combination with a cross coupled series RC circuit in such a manner that the signals appearing at the grids of V101 and V102 will be of equal magnitude and 120 deg out of phase, with signal 1 on V101 leading in phase signal 2 on V102. These signals need to be of equal magnitude and are produced as such by the circuit.
(This circuit was originally developed by William C Wayne and given a patent in 1961, based on earlier work on phase shift networks by Sidney Darlington, and he gives credit: " The design principles on which the design of the lattice network 36 is predicated may be found discussed in an article in the Bell Systems Technical Journal for January 1950, at page 94, in the name of Sidney Darlington.")
Signals 1 and 2 are amplified, inverted, and fed to the second halves of V101 and V102 respectively. These two signals are also added vectorially at the junction of the two 470K resistors (items 17) to produce a resultant which will be of such phase angle to bisect the 120 deg phase angle between the original vectors to each resistor and therefore maintain a 60 deg relationship with each. The selection of the resistor to ground from the junction of the two 470K resistors determines the amplitude of that signal, which is made equal to the others by the proper value. This signal is then amplified and inverted by the first half of V103. This inverted resultant as coupled to the grid of the second half of V103 will be as the same magnitude as signal 1 and 2, but 120 deg out of phase.
At this point the original signal has been divided into equal signals whose phase relationship is 120 degrees with each other.
The signals pass through cathode followers which are used as current amplifiers and do not change the phase, the second halves of V101, V102, and V103. These tubes are fairly high current triodes, 6CM7s, because they have to drive the cathode of the following RC oscillator stages which have a very low impedance.
Op amps could be used for all this circuitry without changing the system in any way except for its distortion characteristics.
For convenience we'll call the output on the cathode of V101 (A), the output on V102 (B), and the output on V103 (C). Signal B lags signal A by 120 deg, and signal C lags signal B by 120 deg. By providing a method for selecting and amplifying these signals in this phase lagging order a specified number of cycles per second, it can be seen that this specified number of cycles will be subtracted from the original signal. Selection of three vectors which are 120 deg apart comprises a complete cycle of 360 deg, so if you select the first vector for 120 degrees of a cycle, the second vector for 120 degrees of a cycle and the third vector for 120 degrees of the cycle you will have the original frequency minus the number of times you select the vectors. This happens because each time you select a vector it is lagging behind the previous one by 120 degrees so there are actually less cycles in the period than the original signal.
Now, if you select the vectors in the leading direction by going counterclockwise from A to C to B, this specified number of cycles (or selections) will be added to the original frequency. This happens because you are shifting the signal ahead with each selection.
While keeping this basic theory in mind we come to the four phase shift oscillators of 1HZ, 2HZ, 4HZ, and 8HZ.
The LF oscillators are basically three section phase lag RC circuits with a triode amplifier between each section, and there are good reasons for doing this, most importantly the need to have gates which will be in the "on" state for 120 degrees of each cycle, and cut off for the rest. The phase lag RC oscillator does just this. Each section of the oscillator has a network which provides 60 deg of phase shift so that the resultant output is 180 degrees out of phase with the input, activating regeneration that sustains the oscillation at a specified frequency. This means each stage of the RC oscillator remains "on" for a third of the cycle and "off" for the rest, each successive stage drawing current only during its share of the cycle. Further consideration of the 1HZ oscillator shows that signal A is coupled into the cathode of the first stage, signal B to the second stage, signal C to the third stage. Since these stages conduct and amplify in succession 1 cycle per second, the vector signals are being gated, or selected with respect to time in the phase lagging direction, (falling behind) the resultant being the subtraction of 1 cycle per second from the frequency of the signal entering the unit at the time.
The 2 HZ oscillator is similar except for changes which cause it to oscillate at 2HZ. The three vector signals are also injected at the cathode, but in this case the signal A goes to the first stage, signal C to the second stage, and signal B to the third stage which results in selection in the phase leading direction thus resulting in the addition of 2 HZ to the original frequency.
The 4HZ oscillator is like the 1HZ oscillator, instead subtracting 4 HZ per second from the original frequency, and the 8HZ oscillator is like the 2 HZ oscillator but adding 8 HZ to the original frequency.
These oscillators may use transistors or FETs instead of tubes but they do need to be three stage RC oscillators with an amp between each network so that the phase shifted signals can be injected at their non-inverting inputs in order not to interfere with oscillation or frequency stability. (it is also a feature of this system that the four oscillators are approximately at frequency, but vary just enough that the resultant amplitude modulations are not perfectly timed with each other--this provides a random but rhythmic quality which sounds like you can lock up with it, but never will. As soon as you think you have it counted out it is somewhere else.
Following each oscillator there is a broadly tuned parallel resonant LC circuit with band-pass characteristics which relegates the modulated signal from each oscillator to a certain band. As shown on the schematic, 1 HZ is subtracted from the 375 HZ band, two cycles added to the 750HZ band, 4HZ subtracted from the 1500Hz band, and 8HZ added to the 3000HZ band. Due to broad tuning there is overlap between bands, the in between frequencies will obviously be amplitude modulated to some degree, causing the rhythmic pulsations that characterize this unit. The complexity of the chorusing effect is due to the four sections of the audio band simultaneously being modulated at different frequencies. Altogether it is an extremely complex signal phasing arrangement that has yet to be duplicated (probably because nobody really knows about it). Part of this complexity is the broad tolerances in frequency of the LF oscillators and the loosely divided audio bands, the randomness of this should all be kept in mind for any reconstruction of the circuits.
The combined output of all the band filters is amplified by the first half of V110, converted to low impedance by a cathode follower and coupled to the gain control of a conventional 20 watt tube type amplifier.
The amp itself in the unit is pretty fun to play through, but for purposes of a pedal, it can be ignored.
The unit works best for guitar as a stereo signal fed to a second cabinet through a smaller power amplifier. It won't work on its own, it needs to be used with a regular amplified guitar signal, taking the speaker output from that amp and lowering its signal level to feed into the unit, which then sends its signal through a much smaller amp to a second set of speakers. That's where you'll get this amazing spread of heavenly sound, and the distortion from the guitar amp will be chorused along with everything else, allowing you to spread that distortion out to infinity.
So that's how it works. You'll need to stick very close to the concepts to make it do its thing.
I'll try to send this and see if it will still let me post.
Theory of the tube modulator:
The input signal is put through a single stage tube amplifier directly coupled to the grid of a cathode follower which is capacitively coupled to a volume control of 50K, the combination giving you a low impedance signal 180 deg out of phase with the input signal having a maximum gain of about 70. None of this is shown on the original schematic.
The resultant signal is coupled to the grid of V100 where it is amplified and coupled to the second half of V100 which is used as a phase inverter (the same as in your Marshall) with the plate and cathode outputs being 180 deg out of phase with each other.
Each of these signals are shifted in phase by a network of parallel RC circuits in combination with a cross coupled series RC circuit in such a manner that the signals appearing at the grids of V101 and V102 will be of equal magnitude and 120 deg out of phase, with signal 1 on V101 leading in phase signal 2 on V102. These signals need to be of equal magnitude and are produced as such by the circuit.
(This circuit was originally developed by William C Wayne and given a patent in 1961, based on earlier work on phase shift networks by Sidney Darlington, and he gives credit: " The design principles on which the design of the lattice network 36 is predicated may be found discussed in an article in the Bell Systems Technical Journal for January 1950, at page 94, in the name of Sidney Darlington.")
Signals 1 and 2 are amplified, inverted, and fed to the second halves of V101 and V102 respectively. These two signals are also added vectorially at the junction of the two 470K resistors (items 17) to produce a resultant which will be of such phase angle to bisect the 120 deg phase angle between the original vectors to each resistor and therefore maintain a 60 deg relationship with each. The selection of the resistor to ground from the junction of the two 470K resistors determines the amplitude of that signal, which is made equal to the others by the proper value. This signal is then amplified and inverted by the first half of V103. This inverted resultant as coupled to the grid of the second half of V103 will be as the same magnitude as signal 1 and 2, but 120 deg out of phase.
At this point the original signal has been divided into equal signals whose phase relationship is 120 degrees with each other.
The signals pass through cathode followers which are used as current amplifiers and do not change the phase, the second halves of V101, V102, and V103. These tubes are fairly high current triodes, 6CM7s, because they have to drive the cathode of the following RC oscillator stages which have a very low impedance.
Op amps could be used for all this circuitry without changing the system in any way except for its distortion characteristics.
For convenience we'll call the output on the cathode of V101 (A), the output on V102 (B), and the output on V103 (C). Signal B lags signal A by 120 deg, and signal C lags signal B by 120 deg. By providing a method for selecting and amplifying these signals in this phase lagging order a specified number of cycles per second, it can be seen that this specified number of cycles will be subtracted from the original signal. Selection of three vectors which are 120 deg apart comprises a complete cycle of 360 deg, so if you select the first vector for 120 degrees of a cycle, the second vector for 120 degrees of a cycle and the third vector for 120 degrees of the cycle you will have the original frequency minus the number of times you select the vectors. This happens because each time you select a vector it is lagging behind the previous one by 120 degrees so there are actually less cycles in the period than the original signal.
Now, if you select the vectors in the leading direction by going counterclockwise from A to C to B, this specified number of cycles (or selections) will be added to the original frequency. This happens because you are shifting the signal ahead with each selection.
While keeping this basic theory in mind we come to the four phase shift oscillators of 1HZ, 2HZ, 4HZ, and 8HZ.
The LF oscillators are basically three section phase lag RC circuits with a triode amplifier between each section, and there are good reasons for doing this, most importantly the need to have gates which will be in the "on" state for 120 degrees of each cycle, and cut off for the rest. The phase lag RC oscillator does just this. Each section of the oscillator has a network which provides 60 deg of phase shift so that the resultant output is 180 degrees out of phase with the input, activating regeneration that sustains the oscillation at a specified frequency. This means each stage of the RC oscillator remains "on" for a third of the cycle and "off" for the rest, each successive stage drawing current only during its share of the cycle. Further consideration of the 1HZ oscillator shows that signal A is coupled into the cathode of the first stage, signal B to the second stage, signal C to the third stage. Since these stages conduct and amplify in succession 1 cycle per second, the vector signals are being gated, or selected with respect to time in the phase lagging direction, (falling behind) the resultant being the subtraction of 1 cycle per second from the frequency of the signal entering the unit at the time.
The 2 HZ oscillator is similar except for changes which cause it to oscillate at 2HZ. The three vector signals are also injected at the cathode, but in this case the signal A goes to the first stage, signal C to the second stage, and signal B to the third stage which results in selection in the phase leading direction thus resulting in the addition of 2 HZ to the original frequency.
The 4HZ oscillator is like the 1HZ oscillator, instead subtracting 4 HZ per second from the original frequency, and the 8HZ oscillator is like the 2 HZ oscillator but adding 8 HZ to the original frequency.
These oscillators may use transistors or FETs instead of tubes but they do need to be three stage RC oscillators with an amp between each network so that the phase shifted signals can be injected at their non-inverting inputs in order not to interfere with oscillation or frequency stability. (it is also a feature of this system that the four oscillators are approximately at frequency, but vary just enough that the resultant amplitude modulations are not perfectly timed with each other--this provides a random but rhythmic quality which sounds like you can lock up with it, but never will. As soon as you think you have it counted out it is somewhere else.
Following each oscillator there is a broadly tuned parallel resonant LC circuit with band-pass characteristics which relegates the modulated signal from each oscillator to a certain band. As shown on the schematic, 1 HZ is subtracted from the 375 HZ band, two cycles added to the 750HZ band, 4HZ subtracted from the 1500Hz band, and 8HZ added to the 3000HZ band. Due to broad tuning there is overlap between bands, the in between frequencies will obviously be amplitude modulated to some degree, causing the rhythmic pulsations that characterize this unit. The complexity of the chorusing effect is due to the four sections of the audio band simultaneously being modulated at different frequencies. Altogether it is an extremely complex signal phasing arrangement that has yet to be duplicated (probably because nobody really knows about it). Part of this complexity is the broad tolerances in frequency of the LF oscillators and the loosely divided audio bands, the randomness of this should all be kept in mind for any reconstruction of the circuits.
The combined output of all the band filters is amplified by the first half of V110, converted to low impedance by a cathode follower and coupled to the gain control of a conventional 20 watt tube type amplifier.
The amp itself in the unit is pretty fun to play through, but for purposes of a pedal, it can be ignored.
The unit works best for guitar as a stereo signal fed to a second cabinet through a smaller power amplifier. It won't work on its own, it needs to be used with a regular amplified guitar signal, taking the speaker output from that amp and lowering its signal level to feed into the unit, which then sends its signal through a much smaller amp to a second set of speakers. That's where you'll get this amazing spread of heavenly sound, and the distortion from the guitar amp will be chorused along with everything else, allowing you to spread that distortion out to infinity.
So that's how it works. You'll need to stick very close to the concepts to make it do its thing.
I'll try to send this and see if it will still let me post.
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Eb7+9
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
thank you for sharing these details Dave !!
from your text I was able to find the relevant papers ...
Wayne's 1961 patent
https://www.google.com/patents/US3004460
Darlington's Bell Labs paper
https://ia801003.us.archive.org/33/item ... 9-1-94.pdf
interestingly ...
very interesting stuff
~jcm
from your text I was able to find the relevant papers ...
Wayne's 1961 patent
https://www.google.com/patents/US3004460
Darlington's Bell Labs paper
https://ia801003.us.archive.org/33/item ... 9-1-94.pdf
interestingly ...
we can thus see Baldwin's interpretation of the original idea ...While each succeeding modulation frequency may differ in value by a factor of about 2, it has been found that optimum values by which the processed frequencies may differ from unprocessed frequencies, for the several channels, may be as follows :
chan #1 : center 277 Hz, modulation 1.4 Hz, deviation -0.5
chan #2 : center 554 Hz, modulation 2.2 Hz, deviation +0.4
chan #3 : center 1108 Hz, modulation 3.34 Hz, deviation -0.3
chan #4 : center 2216 Hz, modulation 5.5 Hz, deviation +0.25
chan #5 : center 4432 Hz, modulation 8.9 Hz, deviation -0.20
very interesting stuff
~jcm
modern VT circuit analysis and modeling: https://viva-analog.com/product/ifmta-book-pdf/
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daveweyer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
I'll post my reply on the tube modulator topic. Thanks.
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daveweyer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
It looks like carlygtr has struck again, this time over at experiencehendrix , going after John, the owner of Jimi's Guild Quantum amp. From the dustup is seems the guy's name is Carl, he lives in New York, and has collected a bunch of Jimi memorabilia.
I guess you just can't change the Jimi story so late in the game; there is no room for new information because the history is set in stone, and that history excludes West Coast Organ and Amp, 6550s, re-amping, three transistor fuzz, tube modulators, modified Marshalls, grooves in the 15th fret, swapped speakers, modified Wahs, the Guild Quantum, and all the rest of the topics discussed here on the Metro Amp Forum.
Kind of makes it tough on guys like John, who just stumble onto a rare and hitherto unknown piece of Jimi's gear, and want to get the word out and share it with others.
I guess you just can't change the Jimi story so late in the game; there is no room for new information because the history is set in stone, and that history excludes West Coast Organ and Amp, 6550s, re-amping, three transistor fuzz, tube modulators, modified Marshalls, grooves in the 15th fret, swapped speakers, modified Wahs, the Guild Quantum, and all the rest of the topics discussed here on the Metro Amp Forum.
Kind of makes it tough on guys like John, who just stumble onto a rare and hitherto unknown piece of Jimi's gear, and want to get the word out and share it with others.
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Xplorer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
going after John ? in person ? what did he do ?
John should be careful because Tina Hendrix might try to grab his amp....
yes, i think that Carl is from New York. Nevermind about the official myths ....
some friend could tell how modded his Hendrix amp is ..
If some want to believe that Hendrix gears were totaly stock, it's just an opportunity for a good laugh after all
John should be careful because Tina Hendrix might try to grab his amp....
yes, i think that Carl is from New York. Nevermind about the official myths ....
some friend could tell how modded his Hendrix amp is ..
If some want to believe that Hendrix gears were totaly stock, it's just an opportunity for a good laugh after all
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Tone seaker
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
I know this is probably here buried so im asking again.
Dave
Did you mod Hendrix's amps from split cathode to shared?
Did you remove the brite cap on the volume knob?
What were the AC voltages in 1970 on the wall outlets?
Thanks
Dave
Did you mod Hendrix's amps from split cathode to shared?
Did you remove the brite cap on the volume knob?
What were the AC voltages in 1970 on the wall outlets?
Thanks
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daveweyer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
Tone,
I did mod to shared cathode on those amps which were so ear-splittingly bright. I would sometimes remove the bright cap if the amp was still shared cathode. You could usually get it just about right between the two methods.
I do remember measuring the line voltage at about 117 volts, that was in CA.
I did mod to shared cathode on those amps which were so ear-splittingly bright. I would sometimes remove the bright cap if the amp was still shared cathode. You could usually get it just about right between the two methods.
I do remember measuring the line voltage at about 117 volts, that was in CA.
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daveweyer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
This might make Xplorer happy, I found a couple of pics of a West Coast bench with me sitting in front. I have a blown speaker on my head, worn as a hat! Well, if nothing else we were always having fun.
I'll forward them so Xplorer can put them on the cloud.
I'll forward them so Xplorer can put them on the cloud.
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daveweyer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
I asked Xplorer to post part of a phone interview I did with Neal Moser, the luthier at West Coast Organ and Amp who worked on Jimi's guitars, notched the frets on the earlier Strats, put the Tele neck on the Strat, refretted necks, and many other things.
He makes a mention of notching the frets and talks about his career, some memories of West Coast, and other tidbits.
He just doesn't sound like a guy who would have any reason to lie about any of his past deeds, and to be sure, he is one extremely earnest and honest person. See for yourself.
He makes a mention of notching the frets and talks about his career, some memories of West Coast, and other tidbits.
He just doesn't sound like a guy who would have any reason to lie about any of his past deeds, and to be sure, he is one extremely earnest and honest person. See for yourself.
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Xplorer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
sorry for the delay, here is the mutual interview of Dave and Neal. very interesting
https://soundcloud.com/xplorer80/moser-1
here is a "denoised" version, where Neal's voice gets a little bit of gain to compensate for the phone volume level.
https://soundcloud.com/xplorer80/interv ... -processed
https://soundcloud.com/xplorer80/moser-1
here is a "denoised" version, where Neal's voice gets a little bit of gain to compensate for the phone volume level.
https://soundcloud.com/xplorer80/interv ... -processed
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daveweyer
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
Well Jimi lovers and West Coast readers, Xplorer has posted part of a phone conversation I had with Neal Moser a while back. As if you needed reminding, Neal cut the tiny notches in the frets on Jimi's Strats, replaced necks, re-fretted necks, replaced pots, and any other chores which needed to be done to ready the instruments for concerts or recording.
If you like this, there is more, but I just wanted to judge the responses first. If we can do no better than to find reasons to call this genuine and hard working luthier a liar, then there is no point in carrying on.
Neal has a world wide reputation, actual credentials, and one of the longest histories in the business, facts I should think would cause folks to wake up and listen. I also thought readers may glean a lot of character information from his delivery, tone of voice, humility, and the like.
Judge for yourself whether you think he is just making this stuff up, it should be self evident.
I know we have been through this, but nobody likes back pages: Jimi's life was too big to be captured by any book, folks who claim they know everything about him are playing a fool's game. Any of us who worked for him or with him only have our tiny fragment of direct knowledge to share. Even folks who were at the same events disagree as to what happened. You can see a video of an interview, or performance and get a good idea from that, but those fragments are really few and far between.
And even those videos are deceptive as readers here are well aware; the long discussions of whether he used this guitar or another one just like it, or this amp or that, are testaments to the difficulty of nailing things down precisely.
The best we can do is come to a consensus based on limited evidence and agree that a particular fact may have a good probability of being right.
I have offered a lot of new information which has rattled many Jimi acolytes because it was not information laid out in any of the accepted books about Jimi. I started writing about it in 1993 only because Art Thompson had called Marshall and been told that West Coast Organ and Amp had been doing Jimi's gear, and that they had sent a bunch of new amps to West Coast for Jimi's 1969 tour. That's when West Coast appeared on the radar of Jimi fans. But why had it not been mentioned sooner?
West Coast was not an Eddie Kramer fetish, nor a Roger Mayer. We were too invisible to them, tied up as they were with their own worlds. I don't remember if Eddie Kramer ever came to West Coast; whatever interaction we may have had with him was certainly small. I think I talked to Roger Mayer on the phone, but I'm not sure either of us would remember without a reference of some kind.
So we relate our stories from our own perspective, offering what direct knowledge we have-- things we remember for sure and that have a very high probability of being facts.
As I talk to Neal I hear him say that we need each other to verify our facts, and that if we both remember the same events the same way, then the probability of our getting it wrong diminishes greatly.
Things like the Strat with the Tele neck are easy to remember, even Jimi's road manager bringing it in is easy to remember. Looking at the busted up unit was an occasion for every West Coast staffer, they all came over to see the damage. Now remembering every occasion where or when it was used is a lot harder, either before or after it was fixed. I can say with a great deal of certainty that there was a rush on the fix job; they wanted to use it the next day, and Neal remembers it the same way, very high probability of a factual event.
The absolute stories about whether or not it was Jimi's are what you get by reading books; if some so called Jimi expert says it was this or that, then everybody believes him, actual facts be damned. I can only tell you that the broken-off neck had Jimi's signature cigarette burns, his string type, and the usual signs. The road manager said he needed it for a gig or recording the next day. If all that does not fit with the so called accepted story, then there are some discrepancies which call into question the believed narrative.
The truth is that nobody actually knows where the guitar might have been used, what recordings it is on, or its ultimate origin, because nobody took notes on every gig and session or jam.
It's up to so called authorities to "set the record straight", a line I am beginning to loathe because nobody can really do it, especially when it is just hearsay presented as fact. Accepted "experts" can get away with this and nobody doubts them. If they don't mention West Coast or 6550s, well then that couldn't have happened.
This forum is full of that kind of thinking.
This is when consensus is needed, two people at the same event who remember it the same way. Having something which has a very high probability of being fact is as close as we are going to get to what really was, short of having a HD documentary of every event which ever occurred.
I hope this thread does not devolve into arguments of absolutes; I'm still hopeful we can do better. As you can see by listening, all the evidence has not been presented yet, and it is mighty slow to come. Each new piece adds a little to the story.
If you like this, there is more, but I just wanted to judge the responses first. If we can do no better than to find reasons to call this genuine and hard working luthier a liar, then there is no point in carrying on.
Neal has a world wide reputation, actual credentials, and one of the longest histories in the business, facts I should think would cause folks to wake up and listen. I also thought readers may glean a lot of character information from his delivery, tone of voice, humility, and the like.
Judge for yourself whether you think he is just making this stuff up, it should be self evident.
I know we have been through this, but nobody likes back pages: Jimi's life was too big to be captured by any book, folks who claim they know everything about him are playing a fool's game. Any of us who worked for him or with him only have our tiny fragment of direct knowledge to share. Even folks who were at the same events disagree as to what happened. You can see a video of an interview, or performance and get a good idea from that, but those fragments are really few and far between.
And even those videos are deceptive as readers here are well aware; the long discussions of whether he used this guitar or another one just like it, or this amp or that, are testaments to the difficulty of nailing things down precisely.
The best we can do is come to a consensus based on limited evidence and agree that a particular fact may have a good probability of being right.
I have offered a lot of new information which has rattled many Jimi acolytes because it was not information laid out in any of the accepted books about Jimi. I started writing about it in 1993 only because Art Thompson had called Marshall and been told that West Coast Organ and Amp had been doing Jimi's gear, and that they had sent a bunch of new amps to West Coast for Jimi's 1969 tour. That's when West Coast appeared on the radar of Jimi fans. But why had it not been mentioned sooner?
West Coast was not an Eddie Kramer fetish, nor a Roger Mayer. We were too invisible to them, tied up as they were with their own worlds. I don't remember if Eddie Kramer ever came to West Coast; whatever interaction we may have had with him was certainly small. I think I talked to Roger Mayer on the phone, but I'm not sure either of us would remember without a reference of some kind.
So we relate our stories from our own perspective, offering what direct knowledge we have-- things we remember for sure and that have a very high probability of being facts.
As I talk to Neal I hear him say that we need each other to verify our facts, and that if we both remember the same events the same way, then the probability of our getting it wrong diminishes greatly.
Things like the Strat with the Tele neck are easy to remember, even Jimi's road manager bringing it in is easy to remember. Looking at the busted up unit was an occasion for every West Coast staffer, they all came over to see the damage. Now remembering every occasion where or when it was used is a lot harder, either before or after it was fixed. I can say with a great deal of certainty that there was a rush on the fix job; they wanted to use it the next day, and Neal remembers it the same way, very high probability of a factual event.
The absolute stories about whether or not it was Jimi's are what you get by reading books; if some so called Jimi expert says it was this or that, then everybody believes him, actual facts be damned. I can only tell you that the broken-off neck had Jimi's signature cigarette burns, his string type, and the usual signs. The road manager said he needed it for a gig or recording the next day. If all that does not fit with the so called accepted story, then there are some discrepancies which call into question the believed narrative.
The truth is that nobody actually knows where the guitar might have been used, what recordings it is on, or its ultimate origin, because nobody took notes on every gig and session or jam.
It's up to so called authorities to "set the record straight", a line I am beginning to loathe because nobody can really do it, especially when it is just hearsay presented as fact. Accepted "experts" can get away with this and nobody doubts them. If they don't mention West Coast or 6550s, well then that couldn't have happened.
This forum is full of that kind of thinking.
This is when consensus is needed, two people at the same event who remember it the same way. Having something which has a very high probability of being fact is as close as we are going to get to what really was, short of having a HD documentary of every event which ever occurred.
I hope this thread does not devolve into arguments of absolutes; I'm still hopeful we can do better. As you can see by listening, all the evidence has not been presented yet, and it is mighty slow to come. Each new piece adds a little to the story.
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Tone seaker
- Senior Member
- Posts: 495
- Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:08 pm
- Just the numbers in order: 7
Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp
how about some proof that converstion even happened. And that it was this guy and not some friend. I have cleary disproved the notches with pitures of the white strat in Jimi's hands and the man from fender (Neville) that Mitch Mitchell let see the guitar with Jimi's stings on in proving it had not been worked on since Mitch got it and he personaly (Neville) messaged me and any one else can do a face book search for him and he will tell you the same thing saying there were no nothces. Dave give it up your lying and are caught. If you dont want arguments Dave give it up you have been caught.
The strat Tele neck guitar. Well Jimi was heavily photographed and there should be more pics of it besides sitting in with Buddy Miles at Newport. Dave you just keep going around the same old bush. you are proven a BS artist. you right an entire book above. Im not going to disect it completly as i have many times and you just wont stop. Please let the people of this forum have some peace and get back to where we were before the BS started
The strat Tele neck guitar. Well Jimi was heavily photographed and there should be more pics of it besides sitting in with Buddy Miles at Newport. Dave you just keep going around the same old bush. you are proven a BS artist. you right an entire book above. Im not going to disect it completly as i have many times and you just wont stop. Please let the people of this forum have some peace and get back to where we were before the BS started