You Vote: BOG EL34 vs. 6550

[Xplorer]

one more reason why i think that Jimi combined a univibe on the vibrato mode + another amp , without the univibe.
basicaly, it's a doppler effect blended with a clean signal straight into an amp : a leslie effect.
the univibe reproduces that by blending the vibrato channel with a clean channel : the univibe chorus effect. but it can be reproduced out of the univibe, blending a vibrato voice through an amp, and another voice but clean, from another amp.

here you can hear the extensive use of the vibrato he did for some rehearsals , for who knows, and message to love.
compared to the isle of whight for example, where the signal is drowned into the univibe effect, the fillmore east concert has some other dynamics, for machine gun, to me this is it. more transparent, leslie vibe effect, keeping the original strat tone
( more i mean ) . i think that he made an evolution , from these rehearsals. add a fuzz and an octavia before the signal is splitted in two ( also : less power for the signal, nice when you've got such clean tones sometimes, while the amps are turned on ten ... ) , and i think you get into this territory, and this is why it's difficult to obtain this kind of vibe, compared to many other concerts where he uses the univibe on the chorus effect, directly. and to me, it sounds this way, it's different. i've never heard anybody getting this kind of vibe , with the univibe chorus, directly.

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so the signal chain would be :

wah, fuzz, octavia ( don't remember the order ), then :

1 : the univibe on the vibrato channel , then some amps.

2 : straight into some other amp, not through the univibe, maybe this one, with the jbl speakers in the cab or something.

+ the EL34 - 6550 theory, maybe only el 34, maybe 6550, or maybe both .

3 : the combination of all these voices, wich allows this transparent vibe, this little vibrato feel on some parts, ( depends on the mixing of te volume of each amps ) , these clean tones, this neck pickup character, everything ...

[RaySpitzer]

First I do believe that Jimi had 6550 tubes in his Marshalls in the BOG concerts. Also my friend Billy Cox ( Band Of Gypsys bassist ) personally told me that Jimi was using 9 gauge string set with the high E string replaced with a 10 gauge string, also the guitar at this time was tuned flat. Afterwards The Band Of Gypsys perform Machine Gun with jimi's guitar tuned in the key of D. The 1/4" coil cord that Jimi used does alter the tone slightly. The Univibe pedal is actually on even when off/cancel due to no bypass in the pedal and it does make the tone different when it is switched to Vibrato or chorus with the vibrato side slightly cleaner/clearing sounding. The chorus side of the Univibe is slightly muddier in tone to the guitar even when the pedal is set to off/cancel. Also the Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face pedal will sound different when it has more pedals connected to it as Jimi has 4 pedals going on this gig. Univibe, Octavio, Fuzz Face and Cry Baby. I am not sure if Eddie Kramer had anything to do with the Band Of Gypsys live mix as Wally Heider did this recording. I will ask Eddie about this the next time that I see him ( I recently saw him in Los Angeles Ca. at the Grammy Museum as we went to see Yoko Ono 11/3/10 ) I believe that Jimi's tone that night came from his Marshall amps/ tubes/ cabinets/speakers/ settings. Guitar set up, String gauge/tuning/wood/pickups. Effect pedals, Univox Univibe ( Japan ), Octavio ( Roger Mayer Octave up effect ) Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face ( Retuned by Roger Mayer ) Cry Baby pedal ( Retuned and bias by Roger Mayer ) Also the room that they played in had something to do with the recorded sound as did the mics that were used to record Jimi and how the mics were placed and mixed ( We could use an acticle on this alone) Was Jimi's Marshall amps sitting flat on the stage floor with or without wheels that most use today ( I don't, I place my cabinet flat on the stage floor as it reverberates with the wood of the stages floor to create a sound that is unique to the room , usually I roll the cabinet in on my skateboard! LOL. I have a Cabinet with 25wt. Green Back Celestion Speakers ) Most is Jimi's Fingers, Heart, Soul and innovation within himself to go and find those tones that only he could hear, and possibly for only those seconds. Also Buddy Miles and Billy Cox did contibute to his tone as that is what was feeding him his soul to set himself free. As I told Buddy Miles one night, I felt that he played the drums in a way that helped Jimi play some of his greatest music those nights due to Buddy never over playing the drums and being right there for him 100% as was Billy Cox bass playing. It's easy to study technique or equipment but as some of you may know, you can use the same equipment night after night and get different sounds/tones each night and may never get that sound that you made the night before again, even with the same equipment and personel. This kind of shit is crazy for me as i try nightly for some 35 years of my life to recreate or to create and will drive a musician crazy as it just can't be done! So on those moments that it does hopefully your recording and if not you experience the moment to set you free for a few seconds of your musical life.. These are only my opinions and I respect all others and don't believe that I am 100% right all the time! But as a guitarist that has been using Fuzz Faces, Octavias, Univibes, Cry Babys, Maestro Sustainers, Marshalls, Fender Amps. Fender Strats, Pre CBS as well as MIJ, Made In USA. Right handed, Left handed. D tuned flat. Double flat, standard tunings. 9 or 10 or 11 or even 12 gauges ( For SRV tones ) For over 35 years with over 25 of those years playing with Buddy Miles and even playing with the Band Of Gypsys ( Buddy Miles and Billy Cox ) in concert San Diego Ca. 09/05/2001 The Jimi Hendrix Tribute Concert at the San Diego Ca. Street Scene. And at the San Diego Ca. Hard Rock Cafe Buddy Miles Birthday Jam! ( I have the only recordings of these live concerts of me with the Band of Gypsys and if anyone wants a copy let me know I will send one to you free of charge) I like you am searching for that magic tone, that magic sound. that magic feeling. But like a space alien name Sundar that visited me at a gig in San Diego Ca. 1983 that told me that my notes are traveling out into the universe and that they were listening and hearing but I was not listening or hearing them afterwards and was told to grab something to write with after I play to channel waht was being sent to me or when i went to Leo Fender's Fureral and was told the our we are god's special childern and that we like a guitar note last forever even after we can't see or hear it as the vibrations we leave will last forever on this planet. Ray Spitzer 11/18/10 1.55 am Long Beach Ca.

[Roe]

didn't jimi use the mayer axis pedal on BoG?

[Freedom]

Also the Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face pedal will sound different when it has more pedals connected to it as Jimi has 4 pedals going on this gig. Univibe, Octavio, Fuzz Face and Cry Baby.

Not that is important at all but Jimi's wah on BOG wasn't a crybaby, it was a Vox for sure, there is plenty of photo evidence about this...in fact i have only one set of photos of Jimi performing using a Crybaby or a Vox King (what ever it was it was a top logo, no trademark on the front and rounded enclosure) and if i remember correctly it was more than a year before the BOG performances. Apart from that, i've never seen any other photos in studio or live using a crybaby or a vox king...

[Xplorer]

i've seen his vox king, in Seattle.

Ray , welcome here ! i know how you play, and i remember when we talked about this concert , while you were selling your original univibe.
Yes, i'd love to hear your recordings ! send me anything you want, related to your experience, and the band of gypsys experience with jimi. with pleasure. i guess that through yousendit.com, you could send some zip file of less than 100 MO, and it would be fast and free.
i talked about you here at metroamp, and i'm glad that you accepted to come over here, when i talked about metroamp to you, months ago.

by the way, i couldn't contact this guy at dunlop, who modified your blue fuzz face, but i have some nice ones now. i don't know what he put inside, ( maybe some bc108c ? ) but i remember that it sounds great in your hands.

Cheers,

Adrien

[heatpad]

fender 150's 10-38 with an .009 on the high E

[Tone Slinger]

I voted 6550, and hear that tighter, cleaner, glassier type tone from the Royal Albert Hall gig (early '69) all the way through to the end. BOG is a very hard call. I still hear more bottom than a el-34 generally imparts.

[Mynameisfritz]

Hi,
a few weeks ago I got an original Shin Ei Univibe and I notice how it changes the sound in the Cancel-position. But I'm not sure if this is a key ingredient. In line with a BC 209 Arbiter Fuzz, a regular Crybaby and a Baldringer overdrive box I get pretty close. I'm going to record some clips and compare it too a Megavibe too.

[basile865]

Guys, for those still interested in this topic I feel like I have a new perspective on it.....

I was talking with a friend who is another Hendrix nut recently. He has this rig that I listened to clips of, and from the second I listened to it, it stopped me dead in my tracks as serious as a heart attack. I mean this really is the hendrix sound. It literally made my heart skip a beat.

Now that I've got your attention, I'll quickly add that this rig is out of reach for many of us. Its a straight cab with vintage pre-rola g12h30 75hz speakers, an all original univibe, and a serious jtm45/100 clone using lots of NOS parts. The thing about this amp is that according to him the specs are different from the Marshall Hendrix signature amp and some others. The reason being that his friend owns an actual Jimi owned jtm45/100. He modeled the circuit based off of that one. According to him that original amp has ungodly power hitting the plates so much that no modern day kt66 can even handle it.

I didn't it expect it to be so close, I mean it sounds seriously like Hendrix more than anything I've ever heard - even vintage superleads. It just made the strat have this chewy sound, some kind of different distinction I've only heard through Hendrix himself and this guys clips, to my ears anyway.

According to my buddy and his source, Hendrix didn't care much for the superleads - he just used them on the road - but in the studio he really loved his jtm45/100 sound. He also had strong reason to believe that 6550's were NOT used in BOG, but EL34s.

The thing about it now though, my perspective was seriously changed after listening to those clips. People say tone is in the hands etc, and it is to a degree, but I'm sorry, this sound is the result of specific gear that when it hits my ears its immediately "right". I really think that the BOG sound was NOT an EL34 based super lead. Now whether it was 6550's in the head OR considering it was going down as a recording for an album maybe his center stack - the mic'd one was his beloved jtm45/100. I know this has been previously brought up and many will disagree - but my opinion right now is strongly pointing towards something other then a standard EL34 super lead. They might have been the circuits for the other two stacks, but the BOG sound has a very, very, deep percussive vibe to it. Originally I copped the sound by smothering my tone with bass - but the sound I finally have realized, and have the perspective now on - its not an EQ thing - its the circuit making that sound without a doubt. My vote goes towards KT66 or maybe the 6550's, but whatever it is - its not EL34. Of course this is MY opinion and this is an old ass topic but I really feel like I have a better frame of reference to evaluate the BOG sound compared to the past.

I think really its not as hard a sound to nail as I've felt in the past, its just hard to find the right circuit and tube combination - but once you find it - that sound is right there under our fingertips I truly believe - its not just in the hands or some sound that can never be achieved - it DOES exist. I've experimented like hell with my superlead EL34 and just when you think you're close - my buddy comes with his rig and clips and just KNOCKS it out of the park. Now he wasn't playing BOG stuff - but that tone just blew my mind! It had all that rich deep sound like he wasn't even trying - it wasn't loaded with bass and mids to try and compensate.

He was a member on here - I'm not aware of his name and I dont think he frequents the forum but I'll get him back here to give everyone the scoop.

[Xplorer]

off course we're still interested !

please, now i want to build the same exact amp, with the same nos parts ; )

i was thinking of building a jtm45/100 anyway. so ... with nos el34 in it ?

Really ? he has a friend who owns an amp owned by jimi ???? cooool !!!

please, make the best you can, to allow us, ( if he's agree ) , to make a clone of it, circuit, gutshots, every parts and transformers you know ... i mean, really everything , every infos ( if i don't abuse , but you know, you also seem happy to tell this to us ! ; )

could you record some bog clips on this amp and let us hear ?

it could endly be deep magic.

a tube specialist told me that nos ge 6550 are so different from todays 6550, really so much better.
but ... 600 $ ...

i can't believe what you wrote, it's so cool ! thank you Basile

[basile865]

Yeah man don't worry I've got you! He's a good dude so when he gets the chance I'm sure he'd be happy to chime in. If not I'll pass along whatever I can. thats KT66 in that amp btw, not NOS EL34

Essentially he was saying something about the amp that Marshall got to make the signature Hendrix model off of was actually a bass version (if they even made bass jtm45/100s? I dunno) but the idea was that they made it based on how that one was wired which made it more round and not what Jimi's favorite one was. According to him all this hype about hendrix using bass related gear was incorrect - jimi liked the stuff designed more for lead guitar (super lead/75hz speakers not 55hz.)

I dont think theres too many secrets or changes regarding the actual hendrix jtm45/100 - I think theres some small differences in relation to the other jtm45/100 replicas out there currently. He just made it a point to do it as accurate as he could and the results speak for themselves. I'll shoot him an email and a link to this forum though and have him speak for himself - I dont want to mess up any information.

[Tone seaker]

so he owns the Dickenson amp?

[Xplorer]

cool ! ; )

i wonder if it'd be possible to see a FULL (pictures , schematic, infos on parts ) DETAILED description - compare, between the actual jimi's owned amp, of the friend of your friend, and the amp clone of your friend. in this forum, it would be a real bomb, and endly, ( except for the dickinson amp ) a jimi hendrix real gear, fully explained. for the futur generations, it'd be great not to loose it into the private sphere ( paul allen and other jimi hendrix gear owners ), where it could disapear forever. it won't make it less unique i think.

The friend of your friend might actualy own the bog jtm then ... ( ? ) ; )
i didn't know that jimi had several jtm45/100 amps ... dickinson amp , your friend's friend jimi owned amp ... ( ? )

i'd like to search for the exact parts, for as long time as it'll take, and make a pure clone, and take my time. but well, i hope it can become true, as it'd be difficult : a lot of infos needed... : /

[basile865]

I don't believe its the Dickinson amp, I think its a different one. And also, just for the record right now, I do not know if BOG had a jtm45/100 or not - but I personally think its a strong possibility. I sent him an email asking to join the conversation or for permission to release more info but he hasn't gotten back yet - I know he's super busy with the Christmas season for his business. But like I said don't worry guys the information is there to get, it'll just take a little time. Lets not forget that he also had an original univibe and original G12H30 75hz pre rola Celestions - which obviously helps leaps and bounds into achieving that sound.

I will say outside of the BOG concert tone, one thing I can say is that his rig flat out NAILS hendrix tone. There was some studio tones that it sounded identical to. One way or the other its a rig worth chasing.

[Xplorer]

yes, impatience ; ) but no hurry, i totaly understand. i couldn't start building this tomorrow anyway, if your friend offers us the pleasure to discover his amp.

You mean that you don't know if it's the dickinson amp ... about the amp of the friend of your friend ?
i saw this afternoon that the 7026 serial was for sale on ebay some months ago, the one we can see at ampacrhives.com. maybe this one ?
it was later owned by eric johnson.

and i've seen a super 100 , sold, later owned by pete townshend. both were jimi's amps.

i'm trying to collect every infos ( pictures ) i find about jimi's gears, in a thread that was about his fuzz in the beginning.