Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

His guitar slung across his back, his dusty boots is his cadillac.

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parkhead
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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by parkhead » Mon May 10, 2010 1:18 am

Very Interesting Picture

since they obviously carried the SUNN gear back to europe or more particularly the cabinets

It would be interseting to try and see what's on Noel's side of the stage

P
replica ?? I don't need no stinking replica ...

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Mon May 10, 2010 10:36 am

it indicates at least one thing .... hooked up to superleads ( or superbasses but i doubt it ) like this ...the sunn cabinets are VERY unlikely to be of the 4ohms variety ( superleads don't have 2 ohm selector ) , well very unlikely is an understatement , let's say they simply couldn't , ( note; there was some fender 2X15 jbl D130f which were 4 ohms , seen one or two on the bay ...meaning 8+8 in parallel ) ...sunn cabinets could only be 8 ohms or 16 ohms , and that's for sure ..... my research on various forums has also given me the conclusion that these cabinets were most oftely wired in serie , and that jbl D130f were most oftenly seen in 8ohms by the time ....... i really like the idea of them sunn beeing 16 ohm cabs , seems consistent with pretty much all the parameters .

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by parkhead » Mon May 10, 2010 11:57 pm

from a bass forum

Quote
johnk 10 is correct. I bought a 200S new in 1968 and it came with a 4 ohm cabinet containing two D-140F 8 ohm speakers. I bought a 200S extension speaker a year later and it came with two D-140F-6 16 ohm speakers and was thus an 8 ohm cabinet. I had no idea until I opened them both up and saw the speakers. I wrote to Sunn back then and received copies of 1967 and 1970 schematics, which indicated that Sunn switched from D-140F speakers to D-140F-6 speakers effective 3-1-69. This was interesting as the amp was designed to run at 8 or 4 ohms so I would have assumed that the cabinets would all have been 8 ohm cabs with two 16 ohm speakers. It turned out to be advantageous when I began using an SVT amp with the cabs, designed to operate at 4 or 2 ohms.

I'd follow johnk_10's suggestion, the only way to know if it even still has the JBL's is to open it up and look. I'd still put a meter on them, a lot of old JBL's have been re-coned.

The old Sunns were wired for either 8 & 4 ohm, or 16 & 8 ohm cabs from the factory. All of the amps had output transformers that had 4, 8, and 16 ohm taps.
Also, until '71 or so you couldn't buy just an amp from Sunn, the "amp" was the combination of amplifier and speaker cab; i.e. a 200S was a 60 watt head with a ducted center ported 2 X D140F cab, and a Sorado was an identical amp but with a conventionally ported 2 x 15 "Sunn Transducer" (probably CTS) cab, and was about 2/3 of the price of a 200S.
You could buy another speaker cab to go with it, but couldn't buy an amplifier head "ala carte".

I don't know that there was a specific switch date to D140F-6 speakers across the board. I have a pre '69 200S cab with 16 ohm D140's and a pair of '71 2000S cabs with 8 ohm D140's. The 200S cab could have been switched, but I bought the 2000S cabs from the original owner and they came from the factory that way.
March 1969 must have been a transitional month at Sunn, it was also when they switched from UK imported KT88's to US 6550's in all of the 60 and 120 watt amps...

end Quote

I have a 67 sunn 100s and it has speaker and ext speaker jacks on the back
a 8 and four ohm taps are tied to the jacks from the OT and the 16 ohm tap terminated at a terminal strip
so a good tech could switch the head (or sunn did depending on the package )
or rewire the cabs & we already know that DAY ONE Hendrix people Freaked out Sunn by disconnecting the horns in the cabs ...

I also think they often didn't give a FL ICK about the impedance settings on the amps and heads
but thats my opinion ....


so we have sunn cabs that could have been 4 or 8 or 16 ohms
heads with no selector
Marshall amps with selectors ... and later Marshall heads with four output speaker jacks

somone has to make some sound clips ... period


Do not forget ... that two amps in parallel at the input jacks will still interact acoustically

Slash used a boogie amp in the control room in the studio and miced his MARSHALL for tracking
whenever he wanted feedback he leaned toward the boogie and stepped on avolume pedal that would make it louder

If you were Hendrix and you were recording the live shows you might use a particular Marshall all controls on 10
running a few cabs (& a 2-15 jbl cab making a feedback zone you could step into ) and run it in parallel with a cleaner
Marshall running on 6 or 7 and miced for the recording process...
the track hears the clean articulate version of the tone while the feedback and high gain mayhem keep those clean notes
hanging forever ...

it was already a common studio technique to mic the bass amp and take a di signal and blend for punch and clarity

on the early WHO stuff Joe Meek was mixing a direct mic with a heavily compressed secondary signal to pull more out of the guitar amp ...

voodoo chile slight return is a textbook example of what you can do with panning, compresors and 3 or 4 mic placements
& possibly amp combinations

don't get me wrong I'm not saying the BOG tone is a "studio trick" I'm just noting that they were already years into using parallel signal paths to achieve a fuller sound

Jimi's BOG tone is cleaner than Monterey almost as if he's not running on 10 ... or at least not the amp he is micing

p
replica ?? I don't need no stinking replica ...

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Tue May 11, 2010 12:53 am

yeah marshall with four cab jack inputs , didn't thought of it #slapping the forehead# ...but are you sure there was 4 cab jack inputs on 68-early 69 plexi front marshalls ??

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Tue May 11, 2010 12:56 am

parkhead wrote: Jimi's BOG tone is cleaner than Monterey almost as if he's not running on 10 ... or at least not the amp he is micing

p
hell yeah it's cleaner +millions dude , that's what was all about in the beginning when i started to question myself about this mysterious sunn 2X15 ....
by the way one thing i give to you is that the whole recording process this night ( whole placement of the mics , importance of each in the mix , perhaps a P.A somewhere) is still very fuzzy ...and it's a great part of the sound undoubtfully ...
i can only brainstorm on what i know and see , as everyone else , though i'm sure we can raise out enough undoubtfull logic points to sort out this cab ... and since i never saw a plexi from 67 and 68 with four back inputs , knowing jimi used to hook them sunn up to superleads by this times, i still think strongly they cannot be 4 ohms.

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Tue May 11, 2010 1:28 am

just been to amp archives ...been through dozens of superleads the first with four back inputs i found is a late 70... apart from the P.As obviously ( yeah right , true jimi used some , but not on the photo obviously )...it worth what it worth ... but still ....

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by parkhead » Tue May 11, 2010 4:36 pm

please have a look at ser#12361 a hendrix amp with four output jacks

don't forget that an Artsist can get a feature on an amp long before it hits production
especially something as simple as a second set of input jacks

I dont think the tone is that mysterious...
I think you are looking at the wrong end of the amp 100%


http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http ... s%3Disch:1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

p
replica ?? I don't need no stinking replica ...

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Tue May 11, 2010 5:37 pm

parkhead wrote:please have a look at ser#12361 a hendrix amp with four output jacks

don't forget that an Artsist can get a feature on an amp long before it hits production
especially something as simple as a second set of input jacks

I dont think the tone is that mysterious...
I think you are looking at the wrong end of the amp 100%


http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http ... s%3Disch:1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

p
yep ...that's one amp ....find me another model with four inputs from earlyer when he extenively tested hooking jbl cabs to superleads during his contract with sunn ( his 67 blackflag period ) ....and we're done to unprove the 8_16 ohmage ....still the pice of thinking i made one page ago took account of 4, 8, 16 ohms eventualities ....

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by parkhead » Wed May 12, 2010 6:42 am

lets hear those clips !!!

I've owned and sold sets of JBL years ago so I won't buy some to make a clip ...

BTW the Hendrix amp shown in the H O M book has 4 outputs as well

p
replica ?? I don't need no stinking replica ...

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by voxilator » Thu May 13, 2010 9:44 pm

Re: June 2009 posting re " Oldest 25w G12H's.


"Greg Germino and I went over this a long time ago. Greg feels that G12H's were used in mid to late 67 after they came out in late 66, but before that it would have been G12M's since there were no H's.

The 25w rating on G12M's came about in mid to late 67, the move from 25w H's to 30 w came in around late 67 as they re-rated their speakers for the move from paper to kapton voice coils and the new adhesives that handled higher temperature.

The problem is that many times old 20w and 25w stickers were used well after the speakers were re-rated, so that confused the issue big time, of course.

The earliest example of a G12H 25w I know of (from reports) is late 66, according to some sources on the net, but I've never seen one in person, and no one has posted pics that I've seen either, so that's one problem. I know they're supposed to exist, but I'm one of those "show me!" type guys! That hasn't happened yet."

_________________
Scumback Speakers & Cabinets


I have a pair dated...27DL and 29DL ( APRIL 1966 ), 1777 cones, T1217.

I'll be glad to send you pictures for your archives if you wish. I believe these were originally in a Selmer in 1966.

Regards, Stephen

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by parkhead » Fri May 14, 2010 10:37 pm

I've seen g12h25's in person but they were probably made for 6 months or so.

at this point this whole thing comes down to clips, lets hear your BOG setup in action ...

JBLs cerwin vergas uhtahs or celestions ... bring on the clips or

ferme ta bouche

or as FZ once said

Ferme ta Bouche et Jouer ton guitar

my aplolgies for my ontario frenglish

otherwise we are "dancing about architechture"

p
replica ?? I don't need no stinking replica ...

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by frenchie » Sat May 15, 2010 5:00 am

parkhead wrote: ferme ta bouche

or as FZ once said

Ferme ta Bouche et Jouer ton guitar

my aplolgies for my ontario frenglish
errr ...did i add anything since one week ?...what's this ? a free attack ? this is slipping out of control there .... you misplaced your apologies , no one gives a shit about you speaking french like a spanish cow , however you could have chosen another let's say " more civil " expression since i said nothing...but.... oh well the audience now pretty much knows what it's all about ...certainly not about gear ( traduction " ferme ta bouche " --> "shut the fuck up" ) .... i don't have a BOG setup , mine if fairly distant from this , but i tell you one thing , the subjective nature of tone appreciation would certainly add another ten pages of insults rather than a final point to this thread if someone ever post some clips ...i can already hear you whining about the presence level , type of tubes , distance of the mics and all types of shit ... hence the type of methodology i chosen since the beginning , i already sorted out the traynor yorkville monitor with these types of architectural ways of taking the problem so what the heck if it works ?
you love so much passionate trolling battles that only subjective points put a sparkling light in your eyes ? interesting......
hell , if i'm told this often to shut the fuck up even when i effectively shut the fuck up , i'll take you word for word and i guess i'll let you continue going freewheel all by yourself .... i'll let you continue talk about these magic blackflag era superleads which can take a 4ohm sunn cab and a 8/16ohm greenback cab mismatched at the same time ... about magic sound clips which can lead you to the precise level of bass or volume or whatever on a control panel or into the cabinet ..... sounds like fun ..... people who still wan't to swallow biased bullshit , questionnable methodologies and unnecessary personnal attacks can continue , but anyway i've had my cut ... have a nice "jimi and jbl D-120F speakers " thread , it's all yours now !



ps ; really wanna prove i'm wrong ? i'll show you the way because you apperently cannot build a solid argumentation by yourself ; to prove i'm wrong would be quite simple , 1st proving the sunn cab was one of noel redding's previous 2X15 loaded with hardly ribbed cones jbl 140f ( and not jimi's sunn jbl D130F loaded ) cuz here they effectively could be of whatever impedance , and that billy cox changed his bass head setup after the pic we have been able to see of the rehearsals .... these could real arguments , beefed up points ... not some kind of loosy mythology about stars supposedly owning ONLY special order amps with four back inputs.....

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by parkhead » Sun May 16, 2010 3:08 am

you miss my point

this is going in circles ... please post your clips of JBLs

I had sets of JBLs years ago and sold them long before clip making technology existed
I've done my experiments and satisfied my curiosity about them

I wouldn't bother to nit pik about mic placement ect
if you have the sound it ill be obvious like Rockstah on the van halen stuff

I quoted
Frank Zappa

I aplogize if my translation is more insulting in France than it is in Canada

what is your setup & lets hear it

p
replica ?? I don't need no stinking replica ...

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by Xplorer » Sun May 16, 2010 7:17 pm

check out, interesting, buddy guy playing a very clean sound, and what a sustain ! he's a wizard !
at 2:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4oF63Yg ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
parkhead wrote:xplorer ... thanks a million for posting those pics

I quite enjoy discussing Hendrix tone but quite frankly am not interested in the agressive religious approach some take
when discussing the divine revelations from their GOD

Hendrix was a great player and he surrounded himself with smart people like Roger Mayer who helped him craft his sounds

Like the van halen guys we need to get out there and test these setups and give them a listen

especially make sound clips ... and share them

then craft our own sounds

I will tease with one

this is a little clip a friend did using some Ideas I suggested after thinking long and hard about the BOG sound
notice none of the gear is "officially correct" the guitar is a PRS, the amp a traynor and the overdrive a tube screamer

The goal was to create a sound that would hit the ceiling and not come down till the player let go... as you hear in
Machine Gun ... the sound is not created by excessive gain even though it sounds like that is the case

The goal was not the MG tone but the MG type sustain in a portable club sized amp

with a standard fuzz face the effect would be much closer with more bass content and more character

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X0gB_cGDz0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FWIW there was an alnico RED FANG in the Traynor ... though it could be done with an EV or JBL
the speaker choice is not relevant to tuning the amp so it sings properly
the tuning process used would have been childs play to Roger Mayer and is based on how
engineers though about live sound in the 60's ... stuff we have forgotten

p
Last edited by Xplorer on Sun May 16, 2010 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Jimi and JBL D-120F Speakers

Post by Xplorer » Sun May 16, 2010 7:37 pm

please, can we let the mics away ? i've posted two other recording sources of these concerts, that simply are from the mic of two different cameras. it sounds different, but the magic is the same. well just saying that for me, the mics aren't the most interesting point, into this tone.
Also, i want to hear some things too ... if some can that would be great, and even if it won't be as close, it'll be fun anyway, and each could tell his recipes, tell about his set up, and we could hear what's the closest, what should be tryed, modifyed. there are some battles here, and that would be more fun with a guitar battle ; ) about tone. but with some respect.
please guys, even if you don't have this or that type of speaker, pick a superlead, a strat, and post some humble samples, that would enrich our culture and make us wanna try this or that good idea you know ?
i'm gonna post some samples ... with no cab ! and you'll see one of these days, it can sound quite close anyway.

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