5150 Wood Revisited

[fivecoyote]

mKramer, awesome rundown, tx for posting. Will just add my .02:

1. I also can't stand basswood. To me it's too soft-sounding and neutral, which may be what those great players like about it. Doesn't color their fingers.

2. I think Ed's hands could make a rubber guitar sound snappy. He probly bends forks and knives all the time.

3. I have an 80s poplar Kramer Pacer, the thing rings like a frickin' bell unplugged, like no other guitar I've heard other than maybe hollow-bodies. Plugged it's also kinda neutral, imo -- not scooped like ash, not mid-bumped like alder -- but also has 10 tons of lacquer on it so who knows what it would sound like stripped. Telling: I never play it, part of the reason tho is it has a Floyd and I ODd on Floyd in the 80s.

4. DC you crack me up all the time man! I've always wanted an ash LP, now I need to look for one again. Gibby had a run of all-black ash Lesters with some name, but I think they might have had mahog necks? If you've never played a "The Paul" from '79, do yourself a favor and try one. The walnut version.

[mkramer5150]

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but another thought occurred to me that I wanted to toss out for our little debating club to consider :

While I've never personally seen a basswood guitar that exhibits a grain pattern even remotely similar to swamp ash, I have seen alder and poplar guitars with an ash-like grain pattern.

But here's the thing: aren't basswood, alder and poplar all closed grained woods? Swamp ash, by contrast, is an open grained wood. It seems to me that the significance of the distinction between open and closed-grain woods is critical to appreciate as we try to conclusively identify the wood type from which the 5150 is constructed.

Here's why: isn't it true that a closed grained wood, even one with an ash-like grain pattern, would simply not permit the paint-bleed into the grain that we clearly see in the No Bozos pictures?

Said another way, the only reason we can see the grain pattern in the No Bozos pictures in the first place is precisely because, whatever wood that guitar is made from, it has to be an open-grained wood, no? If so, this would strongly militate towards the 5150 being constructed from swamp ash.

In short, would paint bleed into a closed-grained wood in a manner consistent with the paint bleed that we clearly see on the 5150?

[dirtycooter]

Check out 5150DOA on youtube-this kid nails it and its alder with a 59! Tells you in the comments.
Seriously you gotta check it out-spot ON. Tried his settings of the -9/+9 on my pitchfactor with my 59 super strat swamp ash and its super close to his but his still has that mid range dark bark to it I like better. Other than ash, pitchfactor, and sheffield 5150 wet speaks our rigs are pretty identicle.

[garbeaj]

Check out 5150DOA on youtube-this kid nails it and its alder! Tells you in the comments
Seriously you gotta check it out-spot ON.

Well his tone is so drowned in Harmonizer like Ed's that it is tough to make out the actual tone, but I like his clips of the Hagar era stuff too.

[mkramer5150]

There is no question that you can recreate Ed's tone with virtually any type guitar if you have the right amp, effects etc. Pete Thorn's series of youtube instructional videos on "Eruption," e.g., are a perfect case in point: he absolutely nails Eddie's tone off the first album using an alder guitar.

But that aside, I'd still very much like to figure out what type of wood the real 5150 was constructed from if for no other reason than historical curiosity.

In that spirit, and the more I think about it, I sincerely believe we can rule out with a very high degree of certainty all closed-grain woods (meaning the guitar could not have been made from alder, poplar or basswood).

Grain patterns notwithstanding, it seems to me that the fundamental differences between closed and open grained woods and how they interact with paint are the best clues we have with which to work. The paint clearly bled into the wood grain on the 5150. Does not this fact alone strongly suggest that the 5150 was constructed from an open grained wood since such paint bleed is a well-observed characteristic of open-grained woods?

If Wolfgang reads these boards, I'm sure he could tell us the truth. Wolfie, should you ever happen to stumble upon this thread, would you mind settling this question once and for all via a short comment on an official VH outlet?

[garbeaj]

There is no question that you can recreate Ed's tone with virtually any type guitar if you have the right amp, effects etc. Pete Thorn's series of youtube instructional videos on "Eruption," e.g., are a perfect case in point: he absolutely nails Eddie's tone off the first album using an alder guitar.

I like Pete's efforts and I like his own material. But I don't think I would go so far as to say that he "nailed" the first album tones. I think Mark and others on this board have gotten much closer. I really respect Pete and I mean no disrespect to him, but judging by the tone he got in the Eruption instructional videos he is missing some things that others like Chelsea Constable or Strat78, efraser, Rockstah, etc. really get way closer in my opinion.

[dirtycooter]

There were some close up pics someplace weren't there??
And a youtube vid of the guy who worked at kramer actually reviewed the kramer 5150 he helped put together a collector brought to him.
He even talked about having to painstakingly "create" that hocky stick head stock as it did not exist and this was the first one and having to glue the extra wood needed to make the shape. This dude for sure had a very creepy deep insight to the little details of the guitar-had to be the guy who really did build it. But no mention was made of the wood or pickup so..... coulda been a complete pile horseshit he was feedin.
As far as gettin that crazy about how accurate and what type of wood and all the details-thats o.k. to a degree.
But if you get the wood right...... then how much did it weigh... and you go through that scenario..... then the grain pattern....... then was it a 1, 2 or 3 piece body??? It just never ends. At some point you gotta just come to grips, find somethin you can get off on that works and go baby go with it.
But I would like to know for sure as well what the wood is.
I strongly believe it was alder, but thats my opinion. But I swear I can hear a similarity of tone between it and srv's #1. Seriously. Then the kid too. Its in that lower dark midrange to my ears.
But if there are ANY pits or tiny holes at all in the 5150 pics its definitly ash. The only other wood that would do this is mahogany-same kinda grain but softer wood in comparison. If its light korina it would have a lighter tan tone if the wood grain is exposed anywhere in pics. That wood can be grey to tan naked.

If the up close pics show pits its definitly ash or possibly korina/mahogany. Narrows it down to two woods quick!
If the pics show no pits then its still up in the air more so cause ot could still be either of the above along with the basswood alder if the ash or korina was grain filled really really good.

[garbeaj]

There were some close up pics someplace weren't there??
And a youtube vid of the guy who worked at kramer actually reviewed the kramer 5150 he helped put together a collector brought to him.
He even talked about having to painstakingly "create" that hocky stick head stock as it did not exist and this was the first one and having to glue the extra wood needed to make the shape. This dude for sure had a very creepy deep insight to the little details of the guitar-had to be the guy who really did build it. But no mention was made of the wood or pickup so..... coulda been a complete pile horseshit he was feedin.
As far as gettin that crazy about how accurate and what type of wood and all the details-thats o.k. to a degree.
But if you get the wood right...... then how much did it weigh... and you go through that scenario..... then the grain pattern....... then was it a 1, 2 or 3 piece body??? It just never ends. At some point you gotta just come to grips, find somethin you can get off on that works and go baby go with it.
But I would like to know for sure as well what the wood is.
I strongly believe it was alder, but thats my opinion. But I swear I can hear a similarity of tone between it and srv's #1. Seriously. Then the kid too. Its in that lower dark midrange to my ears.
But if there are ANY pits or tiny holes at all in the 5150 pics its definitly ash. The only other wood that would do this is mahogany-same kinda grain but softer wood in comparison. If its light korina it would have a lighter tan tone if the wood grain is exposed anywhere in pics. That wood can be grey to tan naked.

If the up close pics show pits its definitly ash or possibly korina/mahogany. Narrows it down to two woods quick!
If the pics show no pits then its still up in the air more so cause ot could still be either of the above along with the basswood alder if the ash or korina was grain filled really really good.

You are talking about the "No-Bozos" pics...and it was Paul Unkert that shaped the hockey stick headstock on the 5150. I don't know if he actually had anything to do with shaping the body, but I think that he was the guy who shaped/created the unique headstock, based on Ed's Destroyer headstock.

I opted for basswood in my 5150 build, but who knows...supposedly the guitar was/is very lightweight (of course they say that about the Frankenstein too) and when you take the weight into consideration, the obvious "softness" of the wood and the grain that you see in the "No-Bozos" pics it seems to point to Swamp Ash to me or, as many have said about the Frankenstein, an unusually lightweight piece of Northern Ash.

[Tone Slinger]

That is the thing about people who have supposidly played Ed's guitars (some tell of this 'light' weight penomenom). I know for CERTAIN, that If I got the chance to strap on one of Ed's guitars, that my adrenaline would be flowing hard, and regardless of the guitars actual weight, it would feel 'light'.

Ed's Franky didnt show much wear, like gouges or chips (only the paint). This is indicative of hard wood. Soft, southern ash is a different story. Ed claimed his 'Charvel Strat; (Franky) was "about the weight of a Les Paul" back in '78. Jas O. was pictured with it strapped on (with Ed holding a chord on the neck). He would have some idea as to the weight, cause back then, Ed wasnt really known, and only got the interview 'cause Pat Travers blew off his interview with Jas.

I feel fairly certain, due to its inherent brightness that the Franky is indeed hard ash (not southern swamp), and is probably (body alone) in the 4.5 to 5.5 range ('average' for hard ash Franky bodies, like KnE or Musikraft).

The 5150 I always assumed was either alder or poplar. I found out that it isnt either (though poplar is a lighter colored wood than Alder, so, it 'could' be poplar. Kramer used Poplar back then). I guess basswood or swamp ash is the most likely, like whats been surmised in this thread.

[garbeaj]

That is the thing about people who have supposidly played Ed's guitars (some tell of this 'light' weight penomenom). I know for CERTAIN, that If I got the chance to strap on one of Ed's guitars, that my adrenaline would be flowing hard, and regardless of the guitars actual weight, it would feel 'light'.

Ed's Franky didnt show much wear, like gouges or chips (only the paint). This is indicative of hard wood. Soft, southern ash is a different story. Ed claimed his 'Charvel Strat; (Franky) was "about the weight of a Les Paul" back in '78. Jas O. was pictured with it strapped on (with Ed holding a chord on the neck). He would have some idea as to the weight, cause back then, Ed wasnt really known, and only got the interview 'cause Pat Travers blew off his interview with Jas.

I feel fairly certain, due to its inherent brightness that the Franky is indeed hard ash (not southern swamp), and is probably (body alone) in the 4.5 to 5.5 range ('average' for hard ash Franky bodies, like KnE or Musikraft).

The 5150 I always assumed was either alder or poplar. I found out that it isnt either (though poplar is a lighter colored wood than Alder, so, it 'could' be poplar. Kramer used Poplar back then). I guess basswood or swamp ash is the most likely, like whats been surmised in this thread.

I would agree with all that, though I would personally avoid making any conclusions based on what Kramer was using in their production model guitars and I would therefore vote against Poplar, but then anything is possible in this almost totally unproveable mystery.

We need more than photos, we need a scientific analysis based on a sample of the wood from the actual guitar!

[ErickC]

That is the thing about people who have supposidly played Ed's guitars (some tell of this 'light' weight penomenom). I know for CERTAIN, that If I got the chance to strap on one of Ed's guitars, that my adrenaline would be flowing hard, and regardless of the guitars actual weight, it would feel 'light'.

Ed's Franky didnt show much wear, like gouges or chips (only the paint). This is indicative of hard wood. Soft, southern ash is a different story. Ed claimed his 'Charvel Strat; (Franky) was "about the weight of a Les Paul" back in '78. Jas O. was pictured with it strapped on (with Ed holding a chord on the neck). He would have some idea as to the weight, cause back then, Ed wasnt really known, and only got the interview 'cause Pat Travers blew off his interview with Jas.

I feel fairly certain, due to its inherent brightness that the Franky is indeed hard ash (not southern swamp), and is probably (body alone) in the 4.5 to 5.5 range ('average' for hard ash Franky bodies, like KnE or Musikraft).

The 5150 I always assumed was either alder or poplar. I found out that it isnt either (though poplar is a lighter colored wood than Alder, so, it 'could' be poplar. Kramer used Poplar back then). I guess basswood or swamp ash is the most likely, like whats been surmised in this thread.

I would agree with all that, though I would personally avoid making any conclusions based on what Kramer was using in their production model guitars and I would therefore vote against Poplar, but then anything is possible in this almost totally unproveable mystery.

We need more than photos, we need a scientific analysis based on a sample of the wood from the actual guitar!

CSI:5150

[garbeaj]

That is the thing about people who have supposidly played Ed's guitars (some tell of this 'light' weight penomenom). I know for CERTAIN, that If I got the chance to strap on one of Ed's guitars, that my adrenaline would be flowing hard, and regardless of the guitars actual weight, it would feel 'light'.

Ed's Franky didnt show much wear, like gouges or chips (only the paint). This is indicative of hard wood. Soft, southern ash is a different story. Ed claimed his 'Charvel Strat; (Franky) was "about the weight of a Les Paul" back in '78. Jas O. was pictured with it strapped on (with Ed holding a chord on the neck). He would have some idea as to the weight, cause back then, Ed wasnt really known, and only got the interview 'cause Pat Travers blew off his interview with Jas.

I feel fairly certain, due to its inherent brightness that the Franky is indeed hard ash (not southern swamp), and is probably (body alone) in the 4.5 to 5.5 range ('average' for hard ash Franky bodies, like KnE or Musikraft).

The 5150 I always assumed was either alder or poplar. I found out that it isnt either (though poplar is a lighter colored wood than Alder, so, it 'could' be poplar. Kramer used Poplar back then). I guess basswood or swamp ash is the most likely, like whats been surmised in this thread.

I would agree with all that, though I would personally avoid making any conclusions based on what Kramer was using in their production model guitars and I would therefore vote against Poplar, but then anything is possible in this almost totally unproveable mystery.

We need more than photos, we need a scientific analysis based on a sample of the wood from the actual guitar!

CSI:5150

Exactly!

[mkramer5150]

Dirtycooter -- Ha! I concur wholeheartedly; what begins as a hobby can rapidly devolve into a maniacal obsession. But rest assured, us 5150 nuts aren't quite ready to reserve a room at the puzzle factory just yet (though, admittedly, we should probably start soliciting estimates from the moving companies). Those Frankie guys, on the other hand . . .

Seriously, though, here's the thing: it seems to me that the most objective, factual based reasoning we can do revolves around the photographs we have of Ed's guitars. High quality, detailed pictures of the Frankie are legion. Unfortunately, the most detailed pictures we have of the 5150 are the No Bozos files and, as bad luck would have it, we have no way to verify their provenance. Nevertheless, assuming those photos are of the actual 5150 (as opposed to a Louvre-quality forgery), I believe the following inferences are valid:

1) The 5150 was constructed from a relatively soft wood -- one that is likely softer than what was used for the Frankie: while both guitars were in service for roughly the same amount of time (give or take a few years), the 5150 clearly sustained more damage than the Frankie. We can conclude from this either that A) Ed was harder on the 5150 than he was on the Frankie or B) the 5150 was made of a less durable wood. Given there is no evidence to support the former, I believe the latter, by default, must be the case.

2) Whatever wood the 5150 was made from, that wood is, more probably than not, an open grained species: this can be inferred from the simple fact that the paint on the 5150 unambiguously bled into the grain of the wood with which it was made. To my knowledge, such paint bleed does not occur with closed grained woods. By contrast, it is a common phenomenon with open grained woods. Through a basic syllogism, we can thus deduce with a high degree of certainty that the 5150 was not built from alder, poplar or basswood (all of which are closed grained).

3) The 5150's body wood falls on the lighter side of the color spectrum: this can be easily observed from the numerous pictures showing the back of the guitar where the paint has worn away.

My best guess is that the 5150's body was constructed from swamp ash -- a wood that is consistent with all the above and the possible woods they suggest.

With that, I submit the case to the jury

[garbeaj]

Yep, all that is logical.

[rgorke]

I have never seen the 5150 with this neck and a zebra pickup...