Live Without a Net confusion

[donnyboiler]

I'm confused... Ed uses a guitar with a Kramer neck and a black pickup and a 5150 logo for There's Only One Way to Rock. Then he uses the Steinberger for two tracks, then there's a drum solo.

Then... he pulls out what looks like the same 5150/Kramer, but it's tuned a whole step lower with a dropped bottom string (C in this case). That's a big difference in tuning - sure they could have retuned it and adjusted spring tension backstage, but the strings would be floppy as hell. Then the video cuts to Best of Both Worlds and it looks like the same guitar, but back in standard tuning.

Can anyone shed any light?

[wjamflan]

I'm confused... Ed uses a guitar with a Kramer neck and a black pickup and a 5150 logo for There's Only One Way to Rock. Then he uses the Steinberger for two tracks, then there's a drum solo.

Then... he pulls out what looks like the same 5150/Kramer, but it's tuned a whole step lower with a dropped bottom string (C in this case). That's a big difference in tuning - sure they could have retuned it and adjusted spring tension backstage, but the strings would be floppy as hell. Then the video cuts to Best of Both Worlds and it looks like the same guitar, but back in standard tuning.

Can anyone shed any light?

Donny - the simple answer to your question is that LWAN is edited and Ed re-tuned during the drum and bass solos or used a different guitar (though it does look the same). FWIW, Mike changed basses going from his white bass to black.

They started the show in standard tuning playing the covers - YRGM and TOOWTR. After the Steinberger songs and the drum solo they did Dreams and 5150, both tuned down from their recorded versions to help Sammy hit the notes - he still struggled. They did this from the beginning of the tour and continued it right through August and the LWAN shows. Mike's bass solo was actually after 5150 (LWAN edit) followed by Panama - both in standard tuning. BOBW followed Panama.

Here's the show from 1 week earlier to see how it worked:


I do understand why you'd ask though. It looks like he's using this guitar (minus the MM logo) in both instances:


Maybe someone else will chime in with the definitive answer. Hope it helps a little.

Bill

[Bag302]

LWAN was recorded over two nights. VH played consecutive nights at New Haven Coleseum.

I was at the first night and there were audio problems. The worst being Ed's wireless completely cutting out in the middle the big guitar solo. He was visibly pissed.

So I know at least the solo was from the second show.

Also, don't forget the Steinberger had a Transtrem so he could lock in a different tuning on the fly. Probably explains the floppy springs.

[Santino]

There's two possibilities for the song 5150. Either it's the same Kramer 5150, his main number one guitar at the time. There's time between songs to change the tuning. Half step could actually be done just with the floyd fine tuners. Assuming you set it up for that ahead of time. I doubt that's the case though. Intonation and such. The other possibility is it's not the same Kramer. Which is my theory. There are still a stack of Kramer 5150 painted bodies on the floor at 5150 studio. To me the guitar he plays for 5150 on LWAN looks different. I can't explain it. It just seems different to me. Neck seems longer and thinner somehow. I used to think it was my imagination. And it probably is. But he had copies of the Kramer 5150. I'm pretty sure about this. And I think the star inside the upper horn was to tell him which one was the "one". There's also a pic of his guitar tech with a bunch of striped Kramers hanging behind him from the 5150 tour. So either it was retuned between songs or its a copy.

[donnyboiler]

I'm with you, although it's actually a whole tone lower which would normally necessitate a different string gauge too. Yes you could do this in the gap but it seems like a LOT of hassle and I don't think tuning would be rock solid. On this basis I'm thinking one of two things:

Like Bag302 says, it was recorded over two nights. Maybe on the first night the Kramer was tuned down with fatter strings etc. for the drop C in 5150, then on the second night it was maybe returned to standard spec which is how we see it on the guitar solo and quite a few others.

Still seems a lot of hassle. I can't see how the string gauge could have been kept the same. Even if Ed was using 9-46s (and I don't think he was) that low C would have been flubby as hell on the verse palm mutes, and it ain't. I have a Wolfgang in Drop C right next to me as I type and I had to put 10-52s on it to keep the feel about right. You can do it with 9s but you have to be SO damn careful with the low string.

So, it must be a copy, I think.

[Santino]

"5150" is 1/2 step down and drop D. Same tuning I use and my strings are 009-.0046. Same gauge I use for all my guitars. Some are A440. Some are half step down. Pretty sure his gauge was .009-.0040 then. Good Enough is drop A and not only is there a bass string used, he has the 1984 Kramer set up specifically for that song.

I'm going with a 5150 copy for the song 5150. He certainly has what looks to me like a few copies.

[wjamflan]

I'm going with a 5150 copy for the song 5150.

If it was a copy, it was exact - right down to the pick placement. Here are two comparison photos - top is One Way To Rock; bottom is 5150.

[wjamflan]

Notice also that the paint is worn away where he rests his forearm in the exact same way.

[wjamflan]

John Stix: How many different guitars will you run through on stage and are there any differences in them?

EVH: Yes, there are differences. I use my main 5150 guitar. I use another one for Good Enough, because I use an A bass string instead of a low E on that song. It has a sound. What you hear on the record is more my guitar bass than it is bass guitar. On the song 5150 I tune the guitar down a whole step.

GFTPM - Life At The Top (1986)

Jas Obrecht: Can you play a whole show with one instrument?

EVH: I used to. See, sometimes I have special tunings. For "5150", the whole guitar is tuned down to D (a whole step), except for the low E string, which goes down to C. That's why I've got heavier strings.

Guitar Player - The Buddy System (October, 1987)



From Guitar World (September 1986): (Zeke Clark's) area contains about 14 guitars, mainly replacements in case one of Van Halen's three stage guitars should go down. His trio of live instruments includes the heralded 5150, the 1984 Kramer (used for the record) fitted with .060 gauge bass string (Steinberger) Edward shoulders for "Good Enough", and the Steinberger....The guitar hut stocks dozens of sets of 5150 strings (manufactured by Ernie Ball and distributed by Kramer) with gauges reading: .009; .011; .015; .024; .032; and .040. (Pages 81-82)

[wjamflan]

Here's Ed with what I believe to be the same Kramer 5150 guitar when it was newer on the 1984 tour. Notice the red paint hasn't worn off yet from his forearm sweat.

[wjamflan]

Don't know how accurate this is, but the paint jobs all look somewhat different.

[wjamflan]

My guess is Ed used three guitars. Whether or not he used heavier strings on the 5150 so he could tune down during the drum solo is still up in the air from interviews of the time. Here's the setlist in case it was hard to gather from my earlier post:

You Really Got Me - 5150 (standard)
One Way To Rock - 5150 (standard)
Summer Nights - Steinberger
Get Up - Steinberger
Drum Solo - Ed/Zeke tune 5150 down a whole step
Dreams - 5150 (tuned down)
5150 - 5150 (tuned down)
Bass Solo - Ed/Zeke tune 5150 up to standard
Panama- 5150 (standard)
Best Of Both Worlds/Addicted To Love - 5150 (standard)
Love Walks In
Good Enough - 1984 (Bass A string)
Guitar Solo - 5150 (standard)
55 - 5150 (standard) & Steinberger
Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love - Steinberger
Wild Thing - 5150 (standard)
Why Can't This Be Love
Rock & Roll - 5150 (standard)

It's just a guess but it's the best I've got....

[Santino]

I'm going with a 5150 copy for the song 5150.

If it was a copy, it was exact - right down to the pick placement. Here are two comparison photos - top is One Way To Rock; bottom is 5150.

That's some good dectective work! So he obviously just retuned the 5150 Kramer.

[rgorke]

Those Kramers are alder, right?

[wjamflan]

Those Kramers are alder, right?

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