Moderators: VelvetGeorge, RACKSYSTEMS
) and guitar playing side, so your post is all very interesting to me.Great example of some worthwhile info. Please forgive any following post's that might suggest your info is Bullshit and unfounded.BrianK wrote:OK so let's let the terms and attitudes go away.... poof!
I worked on the old master tapes from the demos to the last record with Roth, everything else is at Eddie's 5150: although all bands are technically supposed to hand in their master tapes to the label at the end of an album, the 5150 tapes have never left there. The band has clout and control most don't.
With the old tapes it was easier to find some things I and others had not known, one easy one being everyone saying the reverb on the guitar was in the right channel. It's not, it's the same stereo reverb used on the vocals etc in the mix. At the end of Running w the Devil you can hear this clearly; the last chord has a balanced stereo echo when it dies out. The misconception came from hearing the loud guitar on the hard left mask the left side of the reverb, so the right side reverb is all most people hear. I took a reverb unit at the time and used the dry master tape to try to emulate the exact sound of the original record, so we could use "the same reverb" when doing mixes of the unreleased tracks. (Which were submitted to the band and rejected as they didn't want old {I think DLR-era} tapes coming out then.)
I looked up the old post about what I'd found (from tapes and from asking assistant engineers on the sessions (Donn L has been MIA for many years...). They were the ones who said the 1176 was used, as were SM57s on the upper and lower corners. However I see I failed to mention the two channels recorded; one being VERY bright and thin (NOT the known sound) and the other being dark and wooly (NOT the known sound either); together combined, that made up the known sound of the first few records. I am told one cabinet (and see in photos) had the silver-dome JBL speakers, the other had standard Marshall Celestions (no one knew what kind as they didn't open them). So one of these was the upper mic'ing corner, and the other was the lower corner of its cabinet for the woof.
I learned about the biasing trick from Fred Taccone, who runs Divided By 13 amps now: back in the 70s he played on gigs with Ed a lot, and being an amp guy, he asked about the "Jose modded" amp; this was all there was to it. Lowered voltage to the amp, but with a bias boost inside to get the tubes to function more normally at that state. I had him do it to my own '66 Marshall, but it was rather squashy and compressed - I was not after an EVH sound other than to see what it did, so we undid the "mod" and I like it stock.
I remember hearing about an H&H Power amp being used on the line out to drive the speaker cabinets, but I don't recall who said it. Those are English amps - mainly known for guitar heads that Bauhaus and Marc Bolan used, and they made a weird Echoplex tape unit that is cool. The H&H power amps are very unusual here, don't know where Ed would have found one, but it's a solid-state unit like a Crown amp, darker and meaty-sounding, with a beautiful blue front that lights up when it's on.
The rest of it with pedals etc seems fairly well-documented by photos and people. I hear some great results people have gotten here. Listening to the "room mics" on the sessions, it seems the actual guitar amp didn't sound SO exciting on its own, the brightness of the 1176 added some zing, and the EQ was a factor, etc. as were the two cabinets mic'ed up. Like taking a photo, it can look a lot "like" a person, but be enhanced in some ways. I'm sure the recording lost a bit of the power and girth, while bringing up some clarity and bite.
PS = I do suspect all memories "guilty" until proven innocent, but it's all we get to go on, short of any evidence.
To me, and seemingly to most, it's about info like this that one should use and make their own decisions about once they've tried and experienced it for themselves. Not just call it "some forum post" with no foundation. Ok, enough on that.
Great confirming info Brian and welcome aboard!! A couple of things, after hearing what an 1176 can do, I suspected that there was some use on the album (guitars) but had no confirmation.BrianK wrote:OK so let's let the terms and attitudes go away.... poof!
I worked on the old master tapes from the demos to the last record with Roth, everything else is at Eddie's 5150: although all bands are technically supposed to hand in their master tapes to the label at the end of an album, the 5150 tapes have never left there. The band has clout and control most don't.
With the old tapes it was easier to find some things I and others had not known, one easy one being everyone saying the reverb on the guitar was in the right channel. It's not, it's the same stereo reverb used on the vocals etc in the mix. At the end of Running w the Devil you can hear this clearly; the last chord has a balanced stereo echo when it dies out. The misconception came from hearing the loud guitar on the hard left mask the left side of the reverb, so the right side reverb is all most people hear. I took a reverb unit at the time and used the dry master tape to try to emulate the exact sound of the original record, so we could use "the same reverb" when doing mixes of the unreleased tracks. (Which were submitted to the band and rejected as they didn't want old {I think DLR-era} tapes coming out then.)
I looked up the old post about what I'd found (from tapes and from asking assistant engineers on the sessions (Donn L has been MIA for many years...). They were the ones who said the 1176 was used, as were SM57s on the upper and lower corners. However I see I failed to mention the two channels recorded; one being VERY bright and thin (NOT the known sound) and the other being dark and wooly (NOT the known sound either); together combined, that made up the known sound of the first few records. I am told one cabinet (and see in photos) had the silver-dome JBL speakers, the other had standard Marshall Celestions (no one knew what kind as they didn't open them). So one of these was the upper mic'ing corner, and the other was the lower corner of its cabinet for the woof.
I learned about the biasing trick from Fred Taccone, who runs Divided By 13 amps now: back in the 70s he played on gigs with Ed a lot, and being an amp guy, he asked about the "Jose modded" amp; this was all there was to it. Lowered voltage to the amp, but with a bias boost inside to get the tubes to function more normally at that state. I had him do it to my own '66 Marshall, but it was rather squashy and compressed - I was not after an EVH sound other than to see what it did, so we undid the "mod" and I like it stock.
I remember hearing about an H&H Power amp being used on the line out to drive the speaker cabinets, but I don't recall who said it. Those are English amps - mainly known for guitar heads that Bauhaus and Marc Bolan used, and they made a weird Echoplex tape unit that is cool. The H&H power amps are very unusual here, don't know where Ed would have found one, but it's a solid-state unit like a Crown amp, darker and meaty-sounding, with a beautiful blue front that lights up when it's on.
The rest of it with pedals etc seems fairly well-documented by photos and people. I hear some great results people have gotten here. Listening to the "room mics" on the sessions, it seems the actual guitar amp didn't sound SO exciting on its own, the brightness of the 1176 added some zing, and the EQ was a factor, etc. as were the two cabinets mic'ed up. Like taking a photo, it can look a lot "like" a person, but be enhanced in some ways. I'm sure the recording lost a bit of the power and girth, while bringing up some clarity and bite.
PS = I do suspect all memories "guilty" until proven innocent, but it's all we get to go on, short of any evidence.
Calm down man. We're all friends here.jnew wrote:WOWgarbeaj wrote:Sorry I used the term "bullshit", but I don't know what else to call all these unfounded suppositions about what was done on the recording of the first album.
The original post that Megaro mentioned is just a forum post of pure speculation as far as I can tell. I'll be the first to apologize if someone can point out the place where Ted Templeman or Donn Landee or Eddie or anyone else directly involved in the recording of Van Halen has corroborated or made these statements. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm the asshole. Please, someone help me understand.
I don't doubt Brian Kehew's CV...it is well known. But I'm just not seeing where this information came from and I'm not seeing where it has been verified by anyone involved in the recording.So first off, you're calling it Bullshit because you accuse it of being unfounded. If it's unfounded, then it is possible that there is truth to it. Therefore you have no foundation at all, calling it bullshit.
Secondly, do you really expect Templeman, Landee or Ed to corroborate or chime in? If they don't, it must be bullshit? Is this really your basis, or foundation for argument? WTF man. Or kindly share with us what makes you so knowledgeable, that you can make such statements. Oh wait, let me guess. Your FUCKING tech?
Look man, I just haven't heard who and where the info came from. Are you not at liberty to say? Please excuse me, because I mean no disrespect, it's just rather difficult to believe everything one reads on the Internet.BrianK wrote:Interesting how people call BS without knowing what THEY are talking about. Maybe some people have done more serious research into this than some guy with a laptop!
