6402/53H1777 Greenback Clips!

[Sean_McFly]

Been a while since I've posted, so I figured I'd share some interesting sounds with you guys! I just picked up a 90's Reissue UK Greenback with a 53H1777 (basically a 6402 tone-wise) cone for my '78 1960b thanks to Jim of Scumback Speakers, and DAMN. THIS THING KILLS IT. CLEAR AND BROWN. This is my first ever Greenback I've ever owned. All my other clips have been done with Blackbacks (even my '72 slant from my early clips is apparently filled with '78 blackbacks), so this is a very tonal breath of fresh air. This thing does exactly what I always wanted a Greenback to do. It's warm, yet the top end is wickedly crunchy and tight like a 6402 should be. Here are two clips with my warmoth strat (now sporting a brass block from FU Tone and an Alnico 5 Gibson 498T), one with the Rockstah Mod 5 (tone-matching Mark's classic Rockstah tone because I finally have THAT Greenback lol) and one with the 4550, mixed with a bit of one of the blackbacks in the background. Enjoy and please comment! More clips to come btw (cooking up a nasty VH I tone with the Mod5 and a Woody VH II tone with the 4550 , but you didn't hear it from me lol )

Rockstah Clip:
https://soundcloud.com/seans-evh-explor ... o-v-pickup

Bray Clip:
https://soundcloud.com/seans-evh-explor ... n-78-1960b

[garbeaj]

Great to hear more clips Sean! I will say that the Rockstah Mod 5 sound will be helped greatly by using a new DSD as Mark did. I tried everything under the sun pickup wise in my Northern Ash Musikraft/Locke '78 Frankenstein replica, including a vintage DSD, but nothing came close to the new DSD. My Rockstah 2x12 combo had 6402 speakers as well and I think Mark had it right with that particular combination of amp circuit, speaker, guitar and pickup.

Great playing as always and the headroom on both clips is evident...sounds like you are moving some air there!

[jape88]

That Rockstah clip sounds great, excellent playing with a natural feel, very impressive.

Got to say both you and Garbeaj have the same amps and speakers but the sound is world's apart? It would be interesting to hear both amps recorded with the same set up situation.

[garbeaj]

That Rockstah clip sounds great, excellent playing with a natural feel, very impressive.

Got to say both you and Garbeaj have the same amps and speakers but the sound is world's apart? It would be interesting to hear both amps recorded with the same set up situation.

I have actual 6402 cone reissue Greenbacks, but the difference with what Sean has is negligible. The real difference is that Sean has a 4x12 and he is getting a lot more air than I get with my 2x12 combo.

I just think Sean's Mod 5 would sound better with the new DSD which is what Mark used and recommended for his version of the Mod 5. That's what I went with and I've been very happy ever since. But I still think that if Sean used a new DSD with his 4x12 moving some air, we'd all be devastated! Or at the very least he would be getting tones exactly as Mark got them...

[jape88]

I have actual 6402 cone reissue Greenbacks, but the difference with what Sean has is negligible. The real difference is that Sean has a 4x12 and he is getting a lot more air than I get with my 2x12 combo.

I agree, they are different cones than the later 2000 531777's, the difference isn't a great deal, but at low volume, most speakers struggle to make a distinction of their character imo.
Do you close mic your combo? I'm thinking you may get a more fuller/closer tone which would help for the lack of volume. Try blanketing the combo, I know a few people who have had good results recording with this method.

[garbeaj]

I have actual 6402 cone reissue Greenbacks, but the difference with what Sean has is negligible. The real difference is that Sean has a 4x12 and he is getting a lot more air than I get with my 2x12 combo.

I agree, they are different cones than the later 2000 531777's, the difference isn't a great deal, but at low volume, most speakers struggle to make a distinction of their character imo.
Do you close mic your combo? I'm thinking you may get a more fuller/closer tone which would help for the lack of volume. Try blanketing the combo, I know a few people who have had good results recording with this method.

I do close mic it, but I think the main reason that my recorded sounds suck, especially versus Sean's excellent clips, is that I use a Sennheiser MD-420...I really need a Shure SM-57. That's the only thing that Mark had that I don't have. I think this would make an enormous difference.

[Sean_McFly]

Great to hear more clips Sean! I will say that the Rockstah Mod 5 sound will be helped greatly by using a new DSD as Mark did. I tried everything under the sun pickup wise in my Northern Ash Musikraft/Locke '78 Frankenstein replica, including a vintage DSD, but nothing came close to the new DSD. My Rockstah 2x12 combo had 6402 speakers as well and I think Mark had it right with that particular combination of amp circuit, speaker, guitar and pickup.

Great playing as always and the headroom on both clips is evident...sounds like you are moving some air there!

Glad to hear you liked the tone clips, dude!! And funny enough, I DO have a new DSD, but it's slumming it atm in a poplar Kramer Focus 1000 from '86 (my warmoth strat is mahogany so the DSD would be far too dark in tone for it. However, I'm looking for a new strat body, and I know Mark used a Divebomb Inc. one. So, what I'm wondering is, would I get a better tone with a Northern Ash KNE or Musikraft body with the DSD, OR the Northern Ash Divebomb?

[echoplexi1974]

There is a drop down box under "body wood" where you can select northern ash for an extra $25. I got a northern ash body from Kyle about a year ago and was very happy with it. It took about a month to get it but it was worth it.

[Sean_McFly]

There is a drop down box under "body wood" where you can select northern ash for an extra $25. I got a northern ash body from Kyle about a year ago and was very happy with it. It took about a month to get it but it was worth it.

Ah, thanks dude! I just noticed that and edited the post.

[garbeaj]

Man, the tone should be identical regardless of whether you get a KNE, Musikraft or a Divebomb Northern Ash body. And remember I'm speaking only about the Rockstah Mod 5 sounds...like I said, I used what Mark used and I've been happy ever since. I use other guitars with different pickups through that amp and I achieve different sounds, but for first album territory with my '75 Destroyer and my '78 Frankenstein style Northern Ash Musikraft/Locke I can say that a brand new Dimarzio Super Distortion does the trick for me, exactly as Mark did it.

[echoplexi1974]

Man, the tone should be identical regardless of whether you get a KNE, Musikraft or a Divebomb Northern Ash body. And remember I'm speaking only about the Rockstah Mod 5 sounds...like I said, I used what Mark used and I've been happy ever since. I use other guitars with different pickups through that amp and I achieve different sounds, but for first album territory with my '75 Destroyer and my '78 Frankenstein style Northern Ash Musikraft/Locke I can say that a brand new Dimarzio Super Distortion does the trick for me, exactly as Mark did it.

Then why do you mod 5 clips sound so drastically different than everyone else? Is there something else messed up in the setup. You say its a mod 5 but it doesn't really sound like it in my opinion.....

[garbeaj]

Actually I've never really made any extensive clips of my attempts at Mark's VH-1 sounds. I've only posted a few short examples in some of my shorter clips where I play a few licks. Not much of me playing any rhythms either. Of course I don't work on my amps at all so I won't try to take it apart and post pictures of the guts. I replaced a tube with an identical JJ that Mark used, but other than that it hasn't been altered in any way since Mark did the work.

Not everyone that uses a Mod 5 or a Rockstah version of the Mod 5 will have the identical speaker/Northern Ash body, new DSD recorded with an SM 57 like Mark did. Also, Mark recorded clips with my amp using his own 4 x 12 cab with 6402 Greenbacks and post recording reverb and delay etc.

Here is Mark playing through my amp with his 4 x 12 with 6402 Greenbacks using an SM57 and his usual post-recording reverb:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11294718

Here is me playing the "Ice Cream Man" solo through my 2 x 12 6402 Greenbacks using the iPhone:


And here is an old clip I made of me playing some "Runnin' With The Devil" riffs:


Again, my clips are low volume (on around 3 on the Master Volume) through a 2 x 12. Sean and Mark got MUCH more headroom with their 4 x 12's and I'm certain they were playing MUCH louder than me.

[topsportsmanta1]

Its gotta be your speakers allen , cause it doesnt have the mod 5 tone that i can hear in your clips .
Marks clip of your amp sounds correct like it should but your clips are missing the tone for sure , u sure u dont have bad tubes or bias or something isnt off ? I dont here the saggy chewy mod 5 tone
Just trying to figure out what it could be are u still using the g-65 speakers ?

[garbeaj]

Its gotta be your speakers allen , cause it doesnt have the mod 5 tone that i can hear in your clips .
Marks clip of your amp sounds correct like it should but your clips are missing the tone for sure , u sure u dont have bad tubes or bias or something isnt off ? I dont here the saggy chewy mod 5 tone
Just trying to figure out what it could be are u still using the g-65 speakers ?

I'm using the 6402 cone 90s reissue Greenbacks in the clips I posted above. Like I said, I recorded all of the above with my iPhone. Mark used a 4x12 cab with the same speakers and an SM57 with extensive post production. To me, my clips sound exactly like Mark's clips, but maybe that's because I am hearing it in the room as I'm playing.

The mic'ing and headroom have a HUGE impact on the recorded sound, so I think that's where the difference is that you guys are hearing. Mark stressed this to me many times...the SM57 close mic'ed at a sweet spot that maximizes mids is really a major key. I am under no illusion that my iPhone will capture the same sound, but even so my clips don't sound that far off to me...

[Sean_McFly]

Its gotta be your speakers allen , cause it doesnt have the mod 5 tone that i can hear in your clips .
Marks clip of your amp sounds correct like it should but your clips are missing the tone for sure , u sure u dont have bad tubes or bias or something isnt off ? I dont here the saggy chewy mod 5 tone
Just trying to figure out what it could be are u still using the g-65 speakers ?

I'm using the 6402 cone 90s reissue Greenbacks in the clips I posted above. Like I said, I recorded all of the above with my iPhone. Mark used a 4x12 cab with the same speakers and an SM57 with extensive post production. To me, my clips sound exactly like Mark's clips, but maybe that's because I am hearing it in the room as I'm playing.

The mic'ing and headroom have a HUGE impact on the recorded sound, so I think that's where the difference is that you guys are hearing. Mark stressed this to me many times...the SM57 close mic'ed at a sweet spot that maximizes mids is really a major key. I am under no illusion that my iPhone will capture the same sound, but even so my clips don't sound that far off to me...

I agree with Allen here, the sound IS there over the iPhone, and the SM57 IS key, but, I have to weigh in about the headroom. I did a sound comparison of two levels (one at my normal recording volume at around what I consider 3, which would be 9 o'clock, and one at bedroom volume, at about 1, which is at 7 o'clock) without touching my mic input settings and bringing up the volume in my DAW (Pro Tools 11). There's a 11.2 DB difference of headroom, but little to no tonal change tbh. The main thing I think your setup would benefit from, Allen, if you want to go back to mic'ing the amp, would be to get a closed back for your combo with a baffle and a heat shield that isolated the 2x12 speakers internally as a cabinet, perhaps even considering a tad bit of insulation as well to add to that closed back, focused tone. Because I think when it comes to mic'ing, the air and open quality of the 2x12 shows in the specific woodiness frequencies. After getting that thing as tight as an EVH 2x12 cab, you'll be good to go. ALSO, if you are running 2 16ohm 6402's, remember, because that reads out as 8ohms, you need to set your head back to a 4ohm impedance to get the same warmth Mark got on his clips. He ran all of his heads at 8ohms through his 16ohm 4x12's, so you should get even closer running your 8ohm setup with a 4ohm impedance from the head.

Headroom comparison:
https://soundcloud.com/seans-evh-explor ... comparison