Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

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countandduke
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Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by countandduke » Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:13 am

I've LOVED that tone for a LONG time especially with the Kramer guitar. The Steiny sounds good too but not the same. I've looked through the forum but can somebody kinda point me in the right direction as far as what amps and effects and what not? Please...

I believe it's an old plexi that's re-amped with metal face Marshalls, some slight delay and possibly pitch shifting? Was Ed going wet-dry-wet at that point? What speakers? Greenbacks? Variac? Basically the 5150 tour...

Thanks for ANY info.

Chris

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Megaro
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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by Megaro » Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:59 am

Hi Chris, Ed's live gear for LWAN is well photographed. See pics below. His signal chain is also well-detailed, see below article excerpt (this is from the OU812 era, but the LWAN components are the same). I have a Bob Bradshaw signal flow diagram somewhere from LWAN, and I will upload it if I can find it. However, I have read tidbits claiming that Ed and Al insisted on redoing a lot of LWAN as well as RHRN, so even his exact gear used that night might not be what you hear on the audio.

Also, this is a decidedly wet/wet rig. Bob Bradshaw claims he tried to unsuccessfully convince Eddie to use a W/D/W rig during this time period. We know eventually Ed went that route. But, if you have a mixer and some modulation effects, especially chorus - pitch shifting - detune, give the wet/wet rig a try. I know W/D/W is all the rage now. But it is a different tone than wet/wet. If this is the tone you are chasing, use wet/wet as your starting point. Every now and then, you will see a brave sole talk about how wet/wet is actually an okay way to go, but this is not what the cool guys are doing now, including Eddie himself. Something about the phase coherence of wet/wet. I don't claim to understand any of it, but I do like the tone when used with modulation over W/D/W sometimes. But give it a try. Just make sure you have a nice, strong dry signal run straight up the middle in a wet/wet, and then begin to pan the stereo signals with the FX. This is usually a hard pan left and right, but again, do not be afraid to move them around in the stereo field. Also, experiment around with the distance of your left and right cab.

The core tone is also different. This is before Ed went down the whole Soldano / 5150 rabbit hole. I think the main ingredients are a good tube amp distortion, stereo detune up and down, stereo delay (many say 250 left - 500 right) and then some ambient reverb. Mixing in the right amount of FX with the core amp tone is key here. And by mixing, I mean you have to use a mixer. Ed used one of the old Rane models. But you are going for a mix that makes a nice stereo image, like if you were listening to a hi-fi two speaker setup.

Article:
Image

Pics of the Marshalls and rack FX:
Image
Image
Image

One last thought for you. Check out the songs from the Japan gig on the OU812 tour. Ed is using pretty much the same setup as on LWAN. The tone on the Japan tour bootleg is probably pretty closer to what the crowd heard from Eddie live during this era. I have not found a good bootleg from the LWAN tour, but I am sure it is out there. If you listen closely to Ed's tone on the 5150 album and compare it to the LWAN DVD or VHS tape, yes it is different. Anyway, here is a link to some of the Japan gig for comparing.
https://youtu.be/J8-FL-6U1tE


Have fun with it. The 5150 / OU812 era was certainly different tone-wise for Ed. Something was going on in the 80s. Even David Gilmour went with the whole guitar rig that looks like it belongs on a space shuttle thing. My thought is that for those of us trying to cop Ed's tone, all the FX really masks the core tone of the Marshall, and replaces it with more focus on the FX. The good news is that you can get really close with a decent tube amp and a few of the Eventide stomp boxes if this be your holy grail of tone if you have limited funds.

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by countandduke » Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:38 pm

Thanks for the reply. I really tend to like his tone before the FUCK album but even 5150 and OU812 weren't ma fave tones. Some of the songs sound like he recorded it with a Steinberger and sounds a little sterile to my ears, although sterile might not be the right word. Anyways...

Do we think Ed was using a variac on that 5150 tour? There are some "sound check" videos on YouTube where his sound is close to the sound I dig and I don't hear much delay at all. MAYBE 1 repeat at 250ms and being there's such a HUGE stage, reverb probably isn't necessary. The tone is smooth but still had the ability to do the harmonics and squeals that Ed was famous for. Certainly not TONS of distortion to my ears. I also wonder what they added at the mains PA too...

I'm curious what the "exciter" would do? Is it similar to a BBE Sonic Maximizer? I experimented with one of those back in the 90's and don't ha e good things to say about it.

Were Ed's cabs for the 5150 tour Greenbacks? Just curious.

Thanks.

Chris

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by garbeaj » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:02 pm

Really all you need is an Eventide H9 to get the overwhelming majority of the tone heard on 'Live Without A Net'. The core tone is Marshall of some sort, but really the Harmonizer sound is dominant.

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by garbeaj » Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:46 pm

John can you further explain "wet-wet"? I've never heard of this. Is this with two amps? If you have a right amp and a left amp that are both wet, where does the dry tone even come in? I'm bamboozled by this whole thing. My experiments with my H9 have just been with one amp and dialing the mix of the Harmonizer way back.

How does the mixer connect and how does a wet-wet system work? Do you have any diagrams or could you just describe how it would all work? Maybe even with an example of an inexpensive mixer that would do the job and exactly how it would connect?

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by countandduke » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:57 pm

My guess is that wet/wet means a LEFT and Right cabinet and no dry cab/amp. Theoretically, the "wet" cabs are 100% wet. There's NO dry signal coming out. As I understand it, asking a "wet" speaker to have both wet AND dry signal is hard on the speaker. If you have even a short delay signal you're asking the speaker come to produce the original signal and then the exact same signal whatever milliseconds later. I can appreciate how this would be hard for the speaker to do. My guess is that in a 2 speaker setup, one speaker SHOULD be completely dry and then add effects 100% wet on the other. From what I've researched, Ed had his amp going through one mic'd cab and then to THAT signal, added effects and then sent that signal to the V800 amp(s) and then out to the other cabs.

My question is, on the 5150 and OU812 tours, was Ed still using the variac? What kind of speakers were in the dry cab that was used for his main tone? There are some good quality "sound check" videos out there that show his guitar tone and it's a pretty darn smooth without a ton of overdrive but enough to get all the squeals and shit we love about him.

Best,
Chris

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by Megaro » Sun Mar 26, 2017 3:19 am

Allen, the wet/wet rig is really basic. The main requirements are a line mixer and two speaker cabs. Your post distortion FX shows up in both cabs. Bob Bradshaw's diagram of Ed's rig is below:

Image

Chris, Ed was still using the variac on his Marshall heads on the 5150 tour, see photo:

Image

I do not know what specific speakers he was using on that tour. The article I posted above in my earlier post lists 16ohm 30 watt Celestions, but Bob's diagram says 25 watt "celestian"s. I dunno.

Somewhere I have some very clean soundboard clips of the 5150 tour where you can really hear the guts of Ed's tone. It was definitely his Marshall tone, but it was still obscured by all that crazy 80s FX junk. It's like taking a tan and toned supermodel and putting her out on a beach and covering her up with a parka.

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by garbeaj » Sun Mar 26, 2017 8:35 pm

So one amp, two cabs...so the mixer works like a "Mix" control on the Pitchfactor or H9. But then why not just use the "Mix" control on the Pitchfactor or H9 instead of the mixer?! Maybe I'm not getting it...

And I've never heard any 5150 tour soundboards...PLEASE share! :champ:

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by chrisom » Mon Mar 27, 2017 1:27 am

I thought I remembered either Bob Bradshaw or Dave Friedman had mentioned that Ed had his Roland SDE-3000 mixed at '50% Wet/50% Dry' at the time of his wet/wet stereo rig.

I wasn't really interested in it until I was selling some stereo rig gear on CL, and had it set up Dry on one side with 100% wet on the other. I always liked to keep a Dry signal in there somewhere.

It sounded good, but while auditioning each side of it, I noticed the Roland DEP-5 sounded GREAT when I messed with the Mix between Wet/Dry. It even sounded great and Marshall-y (JMP-1 preamp) on the FX side, with the FX mix level at 0%, going through the DEP-5.

I later read on HugeRigs, Inc. about how the older Roland stuff had that buffered Analog 'Dry-Through', and it was part of why Eddie kept the old SDE-3000's in his rig. Looking at the block diagram of the DEP-5 manual PDF file I downloaded online, sure enough, it had it too- a buffered signal path that went AROUND the main digital processing circuit, being re-mixed near the output- buffered at both ends.

I ended up demo-ing it wet/wet, with the FX mix at 50%/50% ('5150'? lol). If I was going to run stereo wet/wet for a 5150-era approach in mind, I would definitely consider using some kind of older Roland rack unit for my delay(s). Just a thought... :listen: :vh:
Last edited by chrisom on Tue Mar 28, 2017 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by FL6 » Mon Mar 27, 2017 8:25 am

In the above pic, it goes to a Lexicon Effects Processor correct? Why does it then go into other effects processors? Also it says the Rocktron is rarely used, is this to boost the signal for the length is has to go?

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by chrisom » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:04 pm

Image

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by chrisom » Mon Mar 27, 2017 4:15 pm

In the above pic, it goes to a Lexicon Effects Processor correct? Why does it then go into other effects processors? Also it says the Rocktron is rarely used, is this to boost the signal for the length is has to go?
The Eventides are for the +9 cent/-9 cent pitch-shift (classic 1984-5150-OU812-For Unlawful 'shimmer')
The Roland SDE-3000 units are for delays (250ms and 500 ms?)
The Rocktron when used, would 'knock the peaks' down, to ease signal spikes into the other processors I assume.

But Ed doesn't have it in his 'travel' rack in this 1991 picture with Lukather. More simplified. The Lexicon PCM-70 is gone as is the Rane SM-26 Splitter/Mixer. A Palmer PDI-03 Speaker Simulator is there, which provides (4) additional line-outs to processors, but I think the Rane was there previously for mixing rather than splitting of the signal. But Ed has his delays here and his signature (at that time) pitch-shift 'shimmer', so along with his hands and his plexi, he's got 'his tone'. :vh:

Image

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by countandduke » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:50 pm

WOW!!! Thank you all so much for all the great info and pictures! I don't particularly care for his tone too much these days, but back in the day, MAN he had a great tone!!! I remember reading an article back when Marshall was looking to reissue the 1959SLP and they sought out a couple plexi amps but I don't think Ed was one of the people they contacted. My memory says they contacted Warren DiMartini and his plexus put out like 200+ watts and needed fans blowing on it from all sides or fuses would blow but they said it sounded SCARY good! It's interesting that Eric Johnson also gets his tone from a plexi amp too. And again, I prefer Eric's tone back in the 2nd Austin City Limits show and the AVM album.

Best,
Chris

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by chrisom » Tue Mar 28, 2017 3:57 pm

Thanks to Megaro for adding all those cool pics and diagrams- I had a couple of them, but WOW- I feel like I was transported back to 1986 with a backstage pass. Thanks! :peace: :rock: :shred: :vh: :rockon: :shred:

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Re: Live Without a Net Tone... I know, but please.

Post by garbeaj » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:09 pm

Would Eddie have had this small "travel rack" with him for the 1987 Saturday Night Live "Stompin' 8H" performance? He certainly had the echo going and the Harmonizer pitch shift shimmer going...I realize the pic was from 1991, but I just wonder if he had it back in '87?

As I said before...the Eventide H9 or Pitchfactor will go a LONG way to getting close to the 'Live Without A Net' tone. I can't imagine any other way in fact. Any other pitch shifting or chorus device is well shy of the mark...

Here are some H9/Pitchfactor settings that I got from a friend that seem to work very well for me. They are set to Stereo mode, and not Wet1/Dry2 or Wet2/Dry1.

5150, 'Live Without A Net' & OU812 era
Image
Last edited by garbeaj on Fri Mar 31, 2017 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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