Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

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Tek465b
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by Tek465b » Sun Oct 21, 2018 8:37 pm

I get what you mean.
transistor are capacitive and they do have some phase shift, mostly over 100khz and the 33p / 30 k is really taking care of that on the simulator. Also when in cut-off the phase go back to 90 instead of 180(or 0 since we have an input resistor converting the voltage to current), will explain below
I also see what you mean with the frequency response.
With the gain down the response is flat, and as its turned up there is a 1k-10khz cutoff.
Now if we remove the 100p the response is flat over the whole gain/2M range.

Now if we add a 47n accross the 5k pot (q3 emitter resistor) we get back the frequency cut-off and no ringing. but now its have a frequency cut-off on the whole range of the gain pot.
What could be done is to add a 10k pot in serie with that 47n cap, so now we have control over this cut-off filter. just more tune/tweak ability.
And of course it make sense, tone shaping is usually done at the output.

So i was wrong there is no 50-80 degree phase shifting happening in the NFB network, q3C is acting as a current source to the nfb network no matter what.

So the real reason for the ringing is.
We can see that the ringing is only in 1 side of the signal when it's going up. i think whats going on is that when the Collector of q1 is in cut-off on that cycle it act as a B-C diode and now the current is 0 degree instead of 180. thus the ringing.
Removing the 100p still fix the issue because it do not get injected into the NFB loop when the gain is turned up.
adding the 47n/10k fix the tone shaping issue(it still add a little bit of the "bad ringing FB" to the nfb (because it get amplified at Q3C) but it stop the ringing)

seem like a good compromise to me.

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by PhilSt » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:56 am

My observations about Jimis Fuzz use/settings,

I guess most people think Jimi only used his FF as a fuzz because of the stories told by e.g. Roger Mayer and to them that's the end of the story.
Well, they are not wrong with the FF settings...for the periode 66-68...and Mr Mayer is telling the truth as well since he was his tour tech in 68. And listening to the live recordings of that time we can clearly hear a heavy fuzz sound...ugly to some, the holy grail to others. But a tonal shift is audible from 69 on where I guess he used the FF as a boost as often as a straight fuzz. So everyone is right...with reguards to the periode.

Regarding the BOG sounds.
I know you guys have the DW 3-transistor west coast circuit and apparently it sound very much along the lines of BOG.
Unfortuantly I haven't played it so I can't tell. But to me it makes sence that the fuzz he used is a version of the (what now is called) Axis Fuzz. Allegedly Jimi called up Roger Mayer (who lived in NY iduring that time) so that he could have a Octavia for the Fillmore East shows. To Me, it only makes sense that Mr Mayer also brought a axis fuzz along and gave it to Jimi. So to me the possibility is very high that the fuzz used was a axis fuzz. And IIRC I used to get good sounding results definitly more BOG sound than Isle of Wight...that beeing said, I don't have a Marshall Plexi.
Also I believe that the axis fuzz circuit he offers today is not the same. I guess it was "improved" and the old version was just a octavia without the octavia part and also biased to 9V not the 24V all the Octavia copies are (if you believe RM).

Does anyone know if the FF was changed during the BOG show? If you look at this picture the FF seams to have a different color than in the famous shot from the double cd cover were jimi is down low (it's the same show-> same cloths).
https://www.wolfgangs.com/photography/j ... 9-35A.html

Also if you take a listen to ezy rider of the late show At The Fillmore East, 69.12.31(iknow, it's not the best audio quality). To me it sounds like first Jimi is turning on the FF as a boost @1:07 and than the Octavia @ 1:12? If so that would contradict the always on double pedal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMPJ9DmJva8

Has anyone here tried the DeepTrop BOG fuzz?

Cheers,
Phil

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by shakti » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:12 pm

PhilSt wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:56 am
Has anyone here tried the DeepTrop BOG fuzz?
I have, I owned it at one point some years back. I wasn't too impressed. It's been a while, but I remember it as being somewhat noisy, it didn't have neither the necessary amount of gain nor the necessary warmth, and the clean-up was lacking.

Phil, your comments are much appreciated! Anyone who tries to archeologically decipher what was behind Jimi's sounds during various periods, trying to look behind the myths and established "truths" is very welcome here! There is so much more to it than "Strat+Marshall+fuzz=you're done, the rest is his fingers" BS that gets thrown around.

As for the Axis type fuzz, I am not going to rule that out as being the BOG fuzz. But I had a Mayer Axis fuzz from (I believe) the late 90s/early 2000s, and I found that really thin and nasty sounding. I do have the Dunlop BOG mini fuzzface and I do like that one, but it still doesn't have quite the gain and warmth I am looking for in a BOG style fuzz. The West Coast fuzz is really the closest I have ever come. Whether it was the actual fuzz design used for BOG or not is not crucial...every time I play it, I find myself thinking that it doesn't matter whether Hendrix used it or not, but he certainly *would* have if he could. It's that good.

I'll see if I can find some time this Wednesday or Thursday to do a clip, and maybe throw the Dunlop BOG into the mix as well.
JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by shakti » Mon Oct 22, 2018 2:17 pm

BTW, the Octavio into the West COast fuzz works great! It also works well into the WC fuzz in cancel mode (i.e. In non true bypass or "always on" mode). I am using the Dunlop Octavio.
JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by daveweyer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:03 am

Just a note about Jimi's FF units, probably you have all heard this before; every one of those units had been through West Coast during '69, even ones Roger had done, including ones with strange knobs, some of which I put on.
By the time of Woodstock they all had input resistors, 2N591s or 2N525s or 2N527s, and the output pots with range all the way to the actual output signal level, and various other tweaks.
I'd love it if anyone could identify particular units that I might remember. If there are particular changes in tone that you can cross reference that would also be wonderful.
The West Coast 3 transistor unit sounds a lot like those modded original FF units, and used some of the same ideas. And, Jimi had one of those 3 tr. too, but it had fixed values because it had to go into the old case.
Sound is about the only thing that can tell us which is which now. The reason I let all these ideas go public was to see if by building them, anyone could come close to what Jimi sounded like during that period.

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by shakti » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:21 pm

daveweyer wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:03 am
The West Coast 3 transistor unit sounds a lot like those modded original FF units, and used some of the same ideas. And, Jimi had one of those 3 tr. too, but it had fixed values because it had to go into the old case.
That's interesting, as it means that the BOG fuzz *could* theoretically be a 3-transistor fuzz. Am I correct in asuming that the fixed values were the input resistor and the resistor controlling the fuzz content (the one labeled "fuzz" on Tek's build)? Leaving only the volume and gain controls on the front? Those two are by far the most important, the other two are minor tweaks by comparison.

Watch out, I will do my best to get a clip together tomorrow in my off time before I go to work. Will try to also demonstrate re-amping with a Fryette Power Station and add a Fillmore East-type reverb. If time permits I'll compare with the Dunlop BOG fuzz.
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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by daveweyer » Tue Oct 23, 2018 10:04 pm

The 3 transistor unit could have been the BOG fuzz, no doubt. But you are right about the controls, the most important ones got the two available knobs, and the rest had to be guessed at--and, they were probably changed along the way too, to respond to Jimi's requests.
But I imagine the BOG period saw different FF units in use, depending on all that stuff that happens on the road.
If it was a grab bag, he probably used the modded FF units because there were so many. I think it would have depended on the gig. The sound of the two FF units was quite similar, even though you have had a chance to run the 3 transistor unit through its paces and hear the subtle differences you can get.

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by shakti » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:39 am

Hmm, I made a clip, but am having trouble uploading to Soundcloud. Working on it...
JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by PhilSt » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:26 am

daveweyer wrote:
Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:03 am
By the time of Woodstock they all had input resistors, 2N591s or 2N525s or 2N527s, and the output pots with range all the way to the actual output signal level, and various other tweaks.
So what are you saying is that he didn't use silicone circuits in 69/70 at all?

Question about the input resistor on the Fuzz units and the resistor on the wah output.
So I believe I understand what they are doing, but why did you put a resistor in the fuzz as well as in the wah, wouldn't it have been sufficiant to just put it in one unit e.g. the fuzz.
Well I guess by the time of Isle of wight Jimi must have had a wah or fuzz without the resistor, you can hear it squeel like hell during the solo of All along the watchtower. He turns to his roadies and you can see him say "the Wah wah pedal..." requesting one of yours. And IIRC one of them comes out and changes it for a different unit...but I'm not 100% sure about that, I have to watch the concert again.

@shakti
I'm looking forward to hear your clip :listen:

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by shakti » Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:52 am

JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by shakti » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:02 pm

Two words about the gear;

The amp is a 69-style Super Lead with West Coast mods; shared V1 cathode, 12AT7 phase inverter tube, 6550 output tubes with higher voltages throughout the amp (about 530V on the plates), biased slightly cold. Can't remember if I have the .68uF V2a cap in there or not. No volume pot bright cap. Running into channel 1 alone with volume set to 8-9, but channel 2 volume is turned up likewise. I also have a Lar-Mar PPIMV fitted, and it was turned up to about 6.

The amp is running into a Fryette Power Station which re-amps into a 1969 Marshall 4x12 with T1281s (G12H 55Hz). I have an Eventide H9 in the FX loop of the Power Station set up with a room type reverb which I have tweaked to sound like Fillmore East (to my ears). It sounds great in the room, but the reverb gets a little lost in the recording.

Guitar is a stock 1974 Strat with maple fretboard.

Running through a Castledine wah (non-true bypass) which has an output buffer, so take that into account when judging the few wah sounds. Also have a Dunlop Octavio briefly on. Castledine Supra-Vibe has the preamp active at all times, I am using a customized speed pedal with heel down cancel function like the original vibes.

The West Coast fuzz is also non-true bypass at this stage. It coulours the sound noticeably in bypass/cancel mode, so everything you hear features the fuzz circuit on some way or another. I do turn it on and off a few times. It was set with gain about halfway or 2/3 up, output volume at about 6, input trimmer just slightly up and the "fuzz" control around 3 or 4. It has massive gain and sustain, but always sounds tight and warm with excellent detail. It's slightly noisy with a fair bit of white noise/hiss, so if there's a tweak to cut down on that then that would be great.

The recording is crude and the amp sounds cleaner and thinner on the recording than it does to my ears in real life. I was just using the mic that came with a Focusrite iPad dock - mic suspended from the ceiling in the middle of the room, about 10 feet from the amp, input level set, press record... no EQing, compression or anything. As usual, I clam up as soon as the recording starts, so please excuse my usual flubs, rushed tempos and stream-of-consciousness type medley...

Hope you can still get an idea of the range and response of the fuzz.
JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by daveweyer » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:18 pm

Phil, if you could count on Jimi using the same equipment every time, you could get by with just the resistor in one of the units. The resistor in the FF was a tone generating device at heart, as you can see and hear if you put a pot there. But it also acted to prevent the wah from shorting out the feedback signal and sending the FF into uncontrollable squealing. If the pedals Jimi grabbed were not working correctly, or if he had picked up a pedal at some store along the way, things could get out of hand. Supposedly, we had pedals marked with some identification that he could easily see, or ask for if the roadies were picking the pedals to use. As you note, it didn't always work out that way. Everytime the gear would arrive at West Coast there were some new pedals in the box to be modified.
About the only thing you could count on were the modded amps, since he mostly played through the same ones all the way to the end.
No way to know for sure which pedal he was using unless you see the non-stock knobs, or different colored case. The wah can be partially identified by the indentation on the front with the Vox logo, or the indentation where the logo had been torn off.
Oh, and not much silicon in the FF units, except for a couple pedals modded by another party. I thought the silicon sounded way to harsh and buzzy, although it seems to have been worked out now somewhat.
I think the folks here still cling to the germanium devices to get that special sound, at least in the FF units.

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by daveweyer » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:39 pm

Shakti, holy crap!
It just sounds awesome!! It feels so close to the sound I was trying to get for Jimi in those days. Fat and distinguishable overdrive distortion that gives you the meat of the distortion you crave, but is clear and articulated, not woolly and mushy like the early sound.
The FF just can hardly wait to sustain and take off, just everything I had hoped for in building that circuit way back in the summer of love. Actually, it was just a guess that it would work, but I could stay up all night back then to fiddle with stuff for the rock players, and, by some stroke of luck the effort on that idea bore fruit.
I am assuming your unit has some of the original 2N591 transistors, is that correct?

Wow, thanks a billion for that demo!

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by shakti » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:44 pm

Dave, the recording was dedicated to you and Tek (M.) who built my fuzz. I am the one who should be bowing and scraping in gratefulness!

I do think mine has some of the old GE transistors, yes. It's the one that is featured in a few photos some pages back. Your description is exactly right - it sounds like the fuzz is just waiting to take off! It feels like driving a very high performance car, that's the best description I can give.
JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103

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Re: Jimi Hendrix' Gear and Mods at West Coast Organ and Amp

Post by neikeel » Wed Oct 24, 2018 5:50 pm

shakti wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 11:52 am
Let's see..does this work?

https://soundcloud.com/user-25664926/8-24-oct-18
Thorlief - very impressive no need to apologise at all (I know the clamming up feeling!) it sounds great and alive, lots of great licks and phrases too that are enhanced by the gear.

Question is do I have to build one of these now?
Neil

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