Bridge Pickups in a Gibson SG Standard

[maltone]

Hello. Recently I bought a Stewmac "Golden Age Overwound" bridge humbucker for a 2006 Gibson SG Standard. I had a Dimarzio SD in the bridge position for about a year, and like it very much. But....over time, I've grown a bit tired of the muffled quack, lack of definition in the upper mids and trebles. I thought I'd try this GA overwound by stewmac.

What I like about the SD: Heavy gut punch in the mids, low mids, immediate pick response, a sense of satisfying power coming through the speakers.

What I don't like about the SD: lack of definition, detail, crispness in the mids and upper mids, trebles. It's definitely bright in the trebles, but it's so brash, there's no sense of detail in the strings - mids, upper mids etc.

What I liked about the Stewmac GA: Crisp, snappy, had some weight and fatness, mids, upper mids and treble were detailed, natural sounding, chords bloomed with much better string definition.

What I didn't like about the Stewmac GA: Low end was boomy, lacked punch, too rounded and soft. The mids were fat, had bite, but didn't have the immediacy and POW of the SD. It had it's own version of that QUACK or AWWW vowel like tone, but it sounded muffled, or PUFFY in the low mids, lows, in comparison to the SD.

— If you could magically marry the low end punch and edge of the SD, but more detail in the mid/upper mids and trebles like the Stewmac GA, that would be the pickup.

I know somewhere on the forum guys have swapped the ceramic magnets in SD's for A5's, and although I've never tried this, if I was to do it with the SD, what would change about the pickup's character, response etc? Thanks.

[Tone Slinger]

I'd leave the DSD alone, it has a slightly larger than normal ceramic magnet, so it might need an additional spacer or something to compensate if you swap magnets.My DSD is the only pu I own that I havent swapped magnets in and out of.
I'd say try a few different magnet types in the StewMac 12K. It has an A5 in it so for what you describe,I'd try a ceramic magnet or an A8. I just ordered some stuff from an Ebay seller 'Addiction'FX'. He has almost every magnet type. You want the 2.5" length.

[maltone]

Tone Slinger, I'm not sure I'd even want to swap the magnet on the SD, I just wondered how it would change the sound. I only know certain things about pickups, and there's so much more I don't know.

For example, if you've ever played an SG 61' Reissue, with the 57 Classic Plus in the bridge, it has a great upper mid, and treble kind of.. "SHEEOWNG" tone. Almost like a single coil has that cut or presence, just ballsier. I like that, but even that pickup's low, mid lows were mushy, spongy is the best word I can describe it as. There's nothing spongy about the SD, but it lacks that upper mid/treble refinement that "vintage hot" A5's seem to nail really well.

I mean, what would you expect to hear in the SD if you did replace the magnet with an A5?

Does that mean that humbuckers with A5 magnets just aren't capable of that of low mid punch like the SD — because they're A5 and not ceramic?

What gives the SD that low mid punch, yet at the same time restrains the mid and upper mid detail? — The fact that it's ceramic? Or that it's wound for that sound?

For example, the Stewmac at 12K, with an A5... what if it was wound exactly the same way, but had an A8? I find this stuff really frustrating. I know there will be a compromise at some point, but there must be a current production pickup that's designed for classic rock, hard rock, with pushed prominent mids/upper mids, and a firm low end?

I'm also frustrated at the lack of good audio clips by each vendor. This is an expensive endeavor to "try out" different pickups. — Thanks.

I'd leave the DSD alone, it has a slightly larger than normal ceramic magnet, so it might need an additional spacer or something to compensate if you swap magnets.My DSD is the only pu I own that I havent swapped magnets in and out of.
I'd say try a few different magnet types in the StewMac 12K. It has an A5 in it so for what you describe,I'd try a ceramic magnet or an A8. I just ordered some stuff from an Ebay seller 'Addiction'FX'. He has almost every magnet type. You want the 2.5" length.

[stef]

Take T. Slinger's advice (ceramic or A8 12k)

[stef]

there must be a current production pickup that's designed for classic rock, hard rock, with pushed prominent mids/upper mids, and a firm low end?

I

L500XL BLawrence usa

[Lefty Lou]

Did you ever think of swapping the A2 magnets for A5 magnets in your Stewmac Golden Age pups? From your description I picked up that the response of a A5 equipped PAF humbucker is what you're after. Here's another alternative, and it's very cheap in cost AND great sounding. Wilkinson makes a Seth Lover inspired PAF copy that's 7 to 8K Ohms for the neck, and about 13.5 to 14K Ohms for the bridge. I saw a description on an eBay auction that stated these pickups utilize Ceramic magnets as opposed to Alnico magnets. Everyone knows that the ceramic magnet and 13.5K to 14K Ohm bridge are not to PAF specs BUT ceramic magnets restore the high end that is lost with hotter output pickups which would explain the ceramic magnets. Wilkinson bridge and neck humbucker sets sell for around $30/HB pair. I have two friends that have these pups in their Vintage Icon "Lemon Drop" guitars and swear by them, so much so that one friend purchased (3) sets off of eBay and this friend likes them more than Seth Lovers and DiMarzio PAFs in both of his custom lefty Baker guitars. FWIW, Wilkinson WVCNN and WVCNB are the pickup model names if you look them up.

[maltone]

Stef, those Bill Lawrence pickups sound like "metal" pickups. They're active yes?

I'm not really into active pickups. A friend of mine has an EMG 81' in the bridge of his LP, and I don't like the sound of them. Really chunky, no jangle though.

[Tone Slinger]

Lefty Lou is right on with what ceramic does to the tone. The StewMacs come standard with an A5.I have a StewMac Zebra 9k and a zebra 12k. I swapped out thier magnets for A2's and for what I was trying to dial in, that change worked. Pu's ARE expensive, but, magnets are not, and a whole lot of pu's that are marketed are the same except for the magnet type. For ex. Seymour Duncan 'Custom', 'Custom Custom' and 'Custom 5' are the exact pu, except for the magnet, Ceramic, A5 and A2 is what is different in them.

The l500xl that Stef reccomended is passive and would have what you described as wanting in your tone. A Duncan 'Custom' would too. See, your Dimarzio Super Distortion has hex pole pieces and 'non'standard size magnet, regardless that it has the same wire and turns/output as say a Duncan 'custom' , it will sound different.

I'd try getting a couple $2 dollar 2.5" magnet bars (they fit standard width or tremelo spaced) and experiment with your 12k stewMac. In general Ceramic has the tightest responce with clarity (but, can get brash) with A2 as having the softest, warmest, sweetest tone. Definately get a ceramic bar and an A8 (very similar to ceramic). It is VERY easy to swap theminand out.

[Lefty Lou]

Lefty Lou is right on with what ceramic does to the tone. The StewMacs come standard with an A5.I have a StewMac Zebra 9k and a zebra 12k. I swapped out thier magnets for A2's and for what I was trying to dial in, that change worked. Pu's ARE expensive, but, magnets are not, and a whole lot of pu's that are marketed are the same except for the magnet type. For ex. Seymour Duncan 'Custom', 'Custom Custom' and 'Custom 5' are the exact pu, except for the magnet, Ceramic, A5 and A2 is what is different in them.

The l500xl that Stef reccomended is passive and would have what you described as wanting in your tone. A Duncan 'Custom' would too. See, your Dimarzio Super Distortion has hex pole pieces and 'non'standard size magnet, regardless that it has the same wire and turns/output as say a Duncan 'custom' , it will sound different.

I'd try getting a couple $2 dollar 2.5" magnet bars (they fit standard width or tremelo spaced) and experiment with your 12k stewMac. In general Ceramic has the tightest responce with clarity (but, can get brash) with A2 as having the softest, warmest, sweetest tone. Definately get a ceramic bar and an A8 (very similar to ceramic). It is VERY easy to swap theminand out.

When I was at the Stewmac website, it was advertised that the Parsons Street humbuckers are available with A2 or A5 magnets. I assumed that maltone had ordered the A2 set from his description and recommended an A2 to A5 swap.
BTW Toneslinger, if you got the repro Stewmac Parsons Street humbuckers, your DC resistance readings shouldn't measure that high for that bridge pup. It should measure in the 8K range as the Parsons Street humbuckers are meant to accurately reproduce a PAF. Now, on the other hand Trevor Wilkinson who claims to have buddied up to Seth Lover and to have reproduced an accurate PAF clone is totally "incorrect" with his 13.5K Ohm ceramic magnet bridge pup as PAF's were never made that way BUT many people really like them so what do I know of individual tastes and what truly sells?

[Tone Slinger]

I have the StewMac 'Golden Age' style. These come in either 9k or 12k for the bridge. They are trem spaced (bridge) and regular spaced(neck). A5 magnets. I put A2 in mine though. 'Parsons Street' are StewMacs vintage accurate paf style.

[Lefty Lou]

I have the StewMac 'Golden Age' style. These come in either 9k or 12k for the bridge. They are trem spaced (bridge) and regular spaced(neck). A5 magnets. I put A2 in mine though. 'Parsons Street' are StewMacs vintage accurate paf style.

"Golden Age" is so misleading as a name, like they were replicas from days gone by. They should more accurately be called "Modern Age" which gets right back to the subject of truth in advertising. When we were younger, companies caught hell for mislabeling and misrepresentation of products, now it's an everyday occurrence and the words "buyer beware" has more meaning and emphasis than it ever did. Someone who has less knowledge than we forum members will buy these "Golden Age" pups or Wilkinson PAF's thinking that these pickups are true to vintage design and sound.

[maltone]

Oh god. This could turn into an endless discussion for me.... So I'll try not to.

I returned the Stewmac GA overwound. It was A5, DCR of 12K, and wound with AWG43 wire. Simply put:
Low End: too rounded, softened, boomy, puffy sounding
Low Mids: same as above
Mids: much better detail, still that puffy quality
Upper Mids: Stellar, crisp, snappy, lots of string definition, "PEEOWNG" type of nasal upper mid honk (think intro riff and A chord on Shoot To Thrill from the back in black album.
Treble: Snappy, some jangle, softened, not shrill, lots of string definition

The super distortion:
Low End: Muscled, Crushing, extended, killer punch and attack
Low Mids: same as above
Mids: pronounced, muscled, but compressed, muffled, quacky - yet tight, lacks definition and breadth, not enough detail
Upper Mids: Same as mids - too much compression
Trebles: although restrained and compressed, brash, in your face.

I'm starting to get the impression, (in my un-educated notion) that A5 isn't powerful enough to drive the low end, low mids quite the same way that a ceramic does - like in the SD. And a ceramic doesn't have the ability to retain the warmth and detail in the mids, upper mids, trebles like an A2 or A5.

Does there exist, or would it be possible to build a custom pickup, that uses 2 different tubular or magnet slug poles instead of a single bar magnet? Like this: http://postimg.org/image/m730jjo61/ — and have the slugs non adjustable, and oversized, like on those Guitar Feitsh "Loudmouth" pickups. See: http://medias.audiofanzine.com/images/t ... 326620.jpg

Maybe it can't be done, I don't know enough about magnet polarity, and the physics behind it. But the idea makes sense to me. Ceramic for the wound E, combination of ceramic and A5 for the A string, and A5 magnet slug poles for the rest of the strings. Or maybe you can't have 2 magnets facing each other like that - I have no idea.

It just seems like bar magnets are a 1 size fits all, that don't ideally suit the frequency ranges of ALL the strings. I know the magnet type, guassed or de-gaussed, rough cast, wind pattern, type of wire, guage of wire, match or mis-matched coils all play a role in the sum of a pickup's tone.

What is it about the DiMarzio SD that sounds so fantastic in the low end, low mids? — but sucks in the detail and richness, crispness in the mids, upper mids, trebles, that are expressed so much more in a lower output PAF? Why can't different types of tube or slug magnets be used together for 2 coils, to offer a wider and richer frequency range for that given group of string(s)? — So that you get the type of mid, upper mid, treble with an A2, or A5 magnet, and that punch, power etc of the ceramic.

I think about that big crushing E chord when I'm playing my SG with the SD in the bridge (through a Marshall DSL-100) - even at a lower to moderate volume, and conservative gain... it's a HUGE sound. That same setting on the amp with the Stewmac GA overwound made the low end sound like POOMP, whereas the SD sounds more like BOWNK!

I don't like the softened attack or rounded effect that an A2 or A5 has on the low/low mids, but I LOVE the effect they have on the mids, upper mids, trebles.

Last one, and I won't babble anymore... This is one of THE BEST demos I think I've ever heard, that really gave me a much better idea of how pickups breath, different magnets, output etc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ72VKJo9b4 The presenter demos the Duncan 59' bridge, the JB, and finally the Duncan Custom Hybrid.

I have to say, despite the Duncan 59's lack of that mid range PUNCH that's so amazing in the SD, I love its upper mid spank, and detail. Yet, I found the JB and 59 custom hybrid WAY too compressed, saturated. It lost all that spank, snarl and detail that the 59 has in spades. Enjoy — and please comment freely.

[Tone Slinger]

I say to 'take the tiger by the tail' and simply swap out magnet types in the pu's you already have. You really should have kept the StewMac so you could see for yourself what a simple magnet swap can do.

Ceramic is brighter, harder with more detail (over all sonic 'brilliance'). Like Lou said earlier, it is used in overwound pu's alot to reintroduce the sparkle and hi end lost from more wire turns. It can make a weaker pu TOO bright and harsh though (like a bridge pos. 8k).
A5 is real bright too, but in a slightly less detailed way. A2 is very warm and open/dynamic.

There is a 'BlackMagic' pu by Mojotone that uses a A5 and a Ceramic magnet (one coil has ceramic mag, the other A5).

In general, if you dont like the push and compression of 'hot' pu's (like awg44 wire wound to 16k ala Duncan Jb/a5 or Duncan 'distortion' ceramic) get a awg 43 wire wound to around 12k (you just had one) and one wound with awg 42 to around 9k (stewMac again). Those two types will give you the best representation of output type WITHOUT being TOO hot (like JB or Distortion).

Awg42 likes no more than 9.5k to 10.k before it loses definition, Awg 43 likes no more than 14k (like the Duncan 'custom'or DSD) before a little mud incures and AWG 44 likes no more than 16k.Each grade of wire basically gets more turns but has the same width/mass as the thicker. For ex. a 8.5k awg 42 wind has the same wire thickness as a awg 43 14k wind, yet, because of its thinner size the awg 43 is wound like 40% more turns, which equals more output.

There comes a point where you settle on certain things. You could spend thousands of Dollars or a couple of hundred before you realize that. An Sg is all neck with a thin little body. You gets MIDS mainly. Imo the 8k to 9k range would be your best bet (nice top & bottom with scooped mids on average), just get several magnet types to see which one you like. Do that before you start 'hybredizing' magnet types, etc.

[Lefty Lou]

Toneslinger has been right all along about the magnet swaps. Unless one has money to go through the cycle of pickup purchases or can wind pickups themselves the magnet swap is the cheapest and best option. Have you guys discussed Alnico 8 magnets?
The coil wind is the heart and soul of the pickup. The magnet type and selection just help define the parameters and limits or conversely expand the range of frequencies which can be heard. After years of goofing and spoofing, I've come full circle back to the basic PAF design. They're not for everybody, especially metal heads however the PAF has suited many guitar players just fine for many years. The real trick (and sign of a good pup winder) is being able to wind a coil that sounds great "unpotted" w/o the squeel.

I was just listening to Gary Moore Live at Montreux 1990 last night and you could hear Gary's Les Pauls that used unpotted humbuckers. They're very open, clear, and have great soundstage whilst sounding on the edge/verge of feedback but w/o the FB. If an A8 magnet swap doesn't cut it for you, then contact David Plummer at Zhangbucker Pickups. I know David, and he is your man for what you are looking for (customized coil and customized magnet pups). This is where David excels.

[Lefty Lou]

I will have to agree with you maltone about the Seymour Duncan 59 humbucker. I have a SD 59' set with trembucker spaced bridge pup in a custom built lefty PRS clone. I noticed the mids were kind of lacking myself. The real test was years ago when I swapped out some Greco Super Real "blackback" humbuckers for a SD 59' humbucker set. At that time I had the regular spaced bridge 59' pup. The Greco pickups "immediately" went back in the guitar (that's how good they sound). In the PRS clone they sound just fine and can be EQ'd with the amp as they're not that "scooped" like a 69' strat pup set. I'm not a fan of 43 AWG in anything but tele neck pups. There are certain limiting factors of 43 AWG that when used in humbuckers just don't come off well.

I have a Seymour Duncan Antiquity humbucker set in my 89' Greco SG Historic Series guitar that just absolutely kill. The openness of the unpotted pickups are stupendous. Think on this, in Hendrix's day he used strat pups with an average DC resistance of 5.5K Ohms per coil. Crisp, clear, clean, but lacking in other areas like not enough beef, not enough mids HOWEVER the low output pups accepted pedals very well and with his equipment, speaker selection, and other variables those pups were made to sound huge, big, and classic.

Now think on this, you get a custom wound coil/magnet pickup set. It sounds great through your rig straight through. Now you plug in pedals (what happened to my sound?) OR you change speaker types/brands or cabinet configurations and your sound goes south. There is a reason for low to moderate output pickups, you can do more with them than without them.