Metropoulos Forum

I would really love to be able to have mullard tubes at an affordable price and be able to have my children buy and enjoy them years down the road as well. Problem: THEY DONT MAKE THEM ANYMORE
Solution: We need to locate the machines that made these things, get all the manufacturing details about it such as the building procedure of the tubes etc. Finally, after this is done we let some company like JJ or Winged C know where it is, have them buy it up and install it in their plant, and presto... we have mullards again.
The hard part is finding these machines. From what I know there are some in Japan that were brought over there to make the Matsushita brand 6ca7 or EL34 tube...they bought the tooling from mullard ( the blackburn one ) in an attempt to make the tubes after mullard stopped producing them. So far I have been able to gather from wiki pedia that Matsushita has become either Panasonic or KDK ... I am not sure which. It would probably be a good idea to ask someone there if they know...but what are the odds of them knowing where an obselete machine for building tubes is, I will however try.
Another acceptable solution is to find the tooling from the ones made in holland by phillips or even the ones made by RFT/Siemens in east germany .... which I assume will be easier. I would love to have as many people as possible jump on board this quest and help solve the mystery so we can have awesome tubes again.

Oh for fucks sake, how many times do you have to be told.

IT CANNOT BE DONE

It's fuck all to do with the tooling, it's to do with the vacuum, the metallurgy, the raw materials (some of which cannot be used in almost the entire world by law) and then there were the coatings which were trade secrets.

This is never going to happen again.

Never ever.

Not ever.


The main reason - back then everything was using tubes. Nowadays, comparitively nothing is using tubes at all. If anybody was to be able to go to the great lengths to produce the same quality of tube consistently, in order to break even they would probably cost about the same as current NOS prices.
Nowadays, the quality of tubes just IS NOT demanded like it used to be. Remember the military don't need tubes anymore, so why should anybody bother going to great lengths to make them long lasting and reliable, when there are in reality no big supply contracts to win anymore.

This isn't just me being obstructive, it's me being realistic and honest.

Now please, get over it, save your energy, and stop getting yourself beat up over something that will not happen.

Matsushita did it...RFT did it ... and this was all well after the 50's and 60's more like 70's and 80's. Anybody who might have some contributions please help.

The 80's (the most recent decade you mentioned) are long gone. The only reason tubes are still being made in China, Slovakia and Russia is that those governments don't particularly care about the hazardous wastes that are dumped into their rivers and/or land fills. This has been discussed here many times before and demonufo is absoultely correct. If Russia and China and Slovakia ever get concerned about their environments, new tubes will go away, and the cost of NOS will become astronomical and out of reach for everyone but the rich and famous. Then we will have to hope that someone comes up with reasonable sounding, digital tube models that will plug into tube sockets. The day will someday come when JJ's from 2011 will be a bargain on e-bay at $200 each.

I've got Mullard XF2's and Matsushita EL34's made on Mullard tooling. IMO there is no comparison in tone. The Japanese tubes don't sound bad but they're no Mules. Proof that the tooling isn't the show stopper.

slashsound wrote:Matsushita did it...RFT did it ... and this was all well after the 50's and 60's more like 70's and 80's. Anybody who might have some contributions please help.

No they bloody didn't. Not even close. And what about RFT? I don't recall them being even remotely similar.

Have you even compared Mullards, Matsu's and RFT's?

Slashsound, it sounds to me like your heart is in the right place!

But another thing that's probably good to point out to discourage internet myths and hopefully enhance understanding of the big picture is that the companies you mention were basically total contemporaries of Philips during those "golden years" of production, rather than "keepers of the flame" (and machinery) after. The technical sharing agreement between Philips and Matsushita started in 1953, and impacted Matsu's tube production very rapidly. But they weren't making tubes using leftover equipment after Mullard stopped. R-F-T was advertising tubes to the world from their four E. German factories ("Representing the Tube Manufacturers of the German Democratic Republic") at least as early as the 11th Brans Special Tubes Vade-Mecum, published in Belgium July 1954. If we're talking 6CA7/EL34s in particular, yes they were invented by Philips and earliest versions produced by them in Holland starting 1949 (I know everyone repeats 1954, that is when they were first distributed widely all over the world, but not first developed or produced). However, Matsushita was making Philips-influenced metal base 6CA7s in Japan by mid-'50s, well before the first Blackburn EL34 versions even appeared early '57. They had black base version by '59 (although without either the cross seams on top or the raised ridges on the plates that are now taken as hallmarks of Matsushita, those only came later in the '60s). All Matsushita audio tube production ended by 1979, which was at least a year before the last Xf4s rolled off the line at Blackburn. Most of the Matsushita EL34s encountered on ebay with (legitimate) orange RCA branding, raised plate ridges, etc. are early '70s,contemporary with later single halo Xf2s. Not sure when very first RFT EL34s w/narrow bases appeared, but definitely by the end of the '50s. The final '70s-'80s version did remain in production for several years after Blackburn quit EL34s, but was being made even before the end of Xf2s in 1973.

Although I'm as big a fan of Mullard Xf2s as they come, I think it would still be fantastic if you could go out now and readily buy new production exact replicas of RFT or Matsushita 6CA7/EL34s, but we're not likely to see that either!

Jeff

Just to add a little more to it, Slashsound, to further reinforce it being nothing to do with the tooling. RFT and Mullard (and indeed Tesla who made my personal favourite EL34) went gradually downhill throughout the years. Mullard XF4's do not sound like XF2's for instance, and RFT certainly went slightly downhill in the early 70's, and more rapidly come the mid/late 70's. Tesla too. When they moved to the Trinec plant in '73 (???) things were okay for a couple of years but began to go downhill also.

Did the tooling change in this timeframe? No.

With Mullard there were some design changes in between that didn't help, but it's certainly not down to tooling and/or expertise in the manufacture.

It just ain't gonna happen.


Personally I think we ought to take a somewhat different approach to the solutions, involving massive redesigns of the equipment, but for those of us who want vintage amps to keep sounding vintage, there are still some good vintage tubes available. Prices, well, it stops everybody else from sounding as good as we do, eh!

54strat wrote:Then we will have to hope that someone comes up with reasonable sounding, digital tube models that will plug into tube sockets.

If this day comes to pass, I will quit playing and sell my gear on the principle of the matter.

There will be no digital bullshit in my Marshall, HiWatt or Fender heads, EVER.

That's creepy to even think about. It's just wrong.

but for those of us who want vintage amps to keep sounding vintage, there are still some good vintage tubes available. Prices, well, it stops everybody else from sounding as good as we do, eh!


That's a good one!

demonufo wrote:
It's fuck all to do with the tooling, it's to do with the vacuum, the metallurgy, the raw materials (some of which cannot be used in almost the entire world by law) and then there were the coatings which were trade secrets.

this too is my understanding of the reason why valves made in the golden era sound better, especially with regard to the raw materials used for the plate structures and the subsequent coatings on the cathodes.

if there was any way of getting people who are still alive and were privy to such knowledge about coatings and alloys used in the construction of these valves, it would certainly be a start.

then again, I'd imagine Aspen Pitman went through all of this when he tried manufacturing valves in the US.

fwiw, I have some of those US-made GE-repro 6L6s and they are very nice indeed.

Still, I think everyone agrees that its EL34s that are not being made at present that sound anything like Mullards.

HTH wrote:

demonufo wrote:
It's fuck all to do with the tooling, it's to do with the vacuum, the metallurgy, the raw materials (some of which cannot be used in almost the entire world by law) and then there were the coatings which were trade secrets.

this too is my understanding of the reason why valves made in the golden era sound better, especially with regard to the raw materials used for the plate structures and the subsequent coatings on the cathodes.

if there was any way of getting people who are still alive and were privy to such knowledge about coatings and alloys used in the construction of these valves, it would certainly be a start.

then again, I'd imagine Aspen Pitman went through all of this when he tried manufacturing valves in the US.

fwiw, I have some of those US-made GE-repro 6L6s and they are very nice indeed.

Still, I think everyone agrees that its EL34s that are not being made at present that sound anything like Mullards.

My take on this is that it is all physics...nothing more. You dont have to have the same materials to get the same sound. There must be easy ways to maniupulate modern materials and modern evolved technology in order to mimic frequency responses of the past...its just physics.

slashsound wrote:

HTH wrote:

demonufo wrote:
It's fuck all to do with the tooling, it's to do with the vacuum, the metallurgy, the raw materials (some of which cannot be used in almost the entire world by law) and then there were the coatings which were trade secrets.

this too is my understanding of the reason why valves made in the golden era sound better, especially with regard to the raw materials used for the plate structures and the subsequent coatings on the cathodes.

if there was any way of getting people who are still alive and were privy to such knowledge about coatings and alloys used in the construction of these valves, it would certainly be a start.

then again, I'd imagine Aspen Pitman went through all of this when he tried manufacturing valves in the US.

fwiw, I have some of those US-made GE-repro 6L6s and they are very nice indeed.

Still, I think everyone agrees that its EL34s that are not being made at present that sound anything like Mullards.

There must be easy ways to maniupulate modern materials and modern evolved technology in order to mimic frequency responses of the past...its just physics.

Ok, so why isn't anyone doing it if it's so simple?

slashsound wrote:

HTH wrote:

demonufo wrote:
It's fuck all to do with the tooling, it's to do with the vacuum, the metallurgy, the raw materials (some of which cannot be used in almost the entire world by law) and then there were the coatings which were trade secrets.

this too is my understanding of the reason why valves made in the golden era sound better, especially with regard to the raw materials used for the plate structures and the subsequent coatings on the cathodes.

if there was any way of getting people who are still alive and were privy to such knowledge about coatings and alloys used in the construction of these valves, it would certainly be a start.

then again, I'd imagine Aspen Pitman went through all of this when he tried manufacturing valves in the US.

fwiw, I have some of those US-made GE-repro 6L6s and they are very nice indeed.

Still, I think everyone agrees that its EL34s that are not being made at present that sound anything like Mullards.

My take on this is that it is all physics...nothing more. You dont have to have the same materials to get the same sound. There must be easy ways to maniupulate modern materials and modern evolved technology in order to mimic frequency responses of the past...its just physics.

Ummm, so quality of metals (ie their molecular structure) and the coatings used aren't physics then?
You have an opinion on what you need to get the same sound, yet you don't know yourself how to produce them to get this "same" sound? As for having the same materials to get the same sound, these things don't produce sound as such. They are simple electrical devices. Without everything reacting in the same way (of which the metallurgy DOES have a big influence on because of the way a vacuum tube operates), the result will be different.
There is more to it than frequency responses. Sooooo much more. In order to achieve the frequency response desired it would be easier achieved by tweaking the circuit itself anyway, but it will still react vastly differently.

I really think you need to come to terms with the fact that this really isn't going to happen. Nor has anybody the money to invest on something that will never achieve enough return.

slashsound wrote:My take on this is that it is all physics...nothing more. You dont have to have the same materials to get the same sound. There must be easy ways to maniupulate modern materials and modern evolved technology in order to mimic frequency responses of the past...its just physics.

My take on this is you are not familiar enough with tubes/sound/construction to understand why physics isn't the answer. Lots of people have tried to replicate the old Mullard sound (GT, JJ, EH, Blackburn, etc) and design. It just isn't going to happen due to material shortages/changes.