New Mullard or E34Ls?

[revolver1]

Hi guy's, I,ve been useing NOS Mullard ECC83/12AX7's in the pre and Groove E34Ls (from JJ factory) grade 6, for many years now in my 96 RI Plexi. I'd been using the E34Ls since I had a tube blow and it took out a tranny (expensive day that was) for their robust qualitys. Only ever had one dodgy valve apart from that they've been rock solid, I love the sound too helped smooth out that harsh RI amp. But now I'm gonna rip my amp to peices and totally re build it, 69 spec with 68 spec lower filtering. I'm tempted to try the reissue Mullards and I see George uses them in his builds but again im woried about the 460v > on the tubes especially with the spondoolies I'm about to out lay on thease hand wound transformers. I also like to use Anologe Man Beano Boost (rangemaster clone, frequency booster) AM Sun Lion (fuzz) TS808 and TS9 for boost's a bit of additional drive but mostly volume. I use an attenuator so I guess that's gotta stress the valves out a little as well. Am I better off sticking with the Groove's or should I try the reissue Mullards? Any opinions would be greatly apreciated.

[axeman]

Use the Wing "C" they last longer and sound better.

[revolver1]

First off we're hearing alot about the Huricane in England so I hope your all allright. Obviously for completely selfish reasons, I've just ordered and paied for all my component's and shipping for my first build and insurance dosn't cover acts of GOD!... Joking aside I truly hope you and your's are safe and sound.
I've heard a lot of good thing's about the Winged C Valves but I'm a bit unsure of them as I hated the Marsh.. branded Svetlana's in the 90's with an undying passion (one trick pony and even that trick wasn't that good). Groove's were way better musicaly, another level altogether. But it still dosen't answer my original question regarding the Mullard reissues, surely someone out there has tried them in a 68/69 plexi for classic rock and has an opinion?

[revolver1]

So thats it? winged C's, nothing else? no opinions on the reissue Mullards? I've read they dont like high plate voltage's. No opinions on Groove E34Ls in comparison, Billie Gibbons rates 'em, so does Joe Perry. Slash uses Groove so I'm guessing they're the ones. Not that that's all I'm about tone wise but for late 60's early 70's rock it's not a bad endorsement. Some of you guys have got to have tried thease in a Plexi, Opinions please... (I have heard good things about the winged C's from reliable sources, maybe it's the way foward)?

[axeman]

Do your own research and get back with us.

[revolver1]

I thought that was the point of this section (to discuss opinions on tubes). I also thought by asking the questions I was doing my own research. Maybe I'm going about it the wrong way, no prob's. Just thought I could get some opinions since I'm spending an arm an a leg shipping the parts for my build to the UK (especially the trannies). And I've really got no point of referance for how all the tubes I've used in the past are going to sound in a propper plexi as oposed to the disapointingly harsh RI I have. I guess I'm probably better off paying the extra and going NOS all the way instead of starting at square one and trying 3 or 4 different current production output valves, since I cant get any opinions. At least with NOS I know I won't be disapointed.

[johniss0001]

not to be funny here Nos el34s may not make that much of a difference except the wallet, I did a comparisson with some mullard el34s and some chinese el34s in a sound city pa with 480V at the plates. The mullard reissues I haven't tried but if you are talking about e34ls I don't really like them I find them too harsh and I have had reliability issues with them, first quad died in less than 5 hrs they started humming (no disrespect to george) i bought 6 years ago for my 15th birthday, I had a laney super group with these valves the bias drifted and they became microphonic tried them in a diff amp and that was then i realised they became microphonic. Russian valves i.e. softek EH and i had some svets that were sovtek branded and even some groove tubes you could see the sovtek logo on. I have used these valves in my super bass, 69 superlead, 70 super pa they just sound dreadful and lifeless the chinese are my go to valve everytime i have had quads in my amps for about 3 years!

[revolver1]

Hey thanks for the reply, very helpfull to get some feedback. And you've probably helped save me some cash.
straingely enough I've got to agree on one point. I once borrowed a late 70's master vol Marshall to get me out of trouble for a gig and it sounded great. I asked the owner what the valves were and it turns out they were chinese. I'd avoided thease like the plague in my own amps since I'd only ever read bad reviews on them. This amp was from a hire company so it was obviously a work horse and had probably not been shown much love over the years. The owner said the valves had been in it for years with no troubles. However it didn't sound great with the master turned past 8 (could have been the amp though) but below 8 it was fabulous, sounded really vintage.

[johniss0001]

I have been doing valve research with some guys in the industry and some guys who have worked with hendrix way back in the 60's at olympic studios. This is from my experience and my conversations with these guys NOS power valves can make a difference but a lot of it is hocus pocus and thing is NOS power valves well the gasses change over the years etc so it may not be the same valve also when listening to classic recordings these amps were new at the time and the recipe for making these amps have changed due to EU legislation etc. As mentioned i did a test with a pair of mul el34s and a pair of chinese and the pair tonally were virtually identical granted teh mullards were run in and the chinese aren't.

In my personal amps i tend to use contemporary el34bs and NOS preamps or old stock. The chinese el34s have a very similar construction to the mullards with slightly bigger plates my friend told me but we won't know everything until we disect them but no valve has a vacuum like a mullard even though sovtek may have some of mullards tooling.

The master vol above 8 well that's more the amp I never crank my amps i just play them loud enough to find that sweet spot and i don't use celestions speakers well in my 4x15 i do but my 4x12 has goodmans which are a more neutral speaker to me also what speakers are you using with your rig.

If you go down the chinese route for valves don't mod the circuit in your amp try the el34s in it you may be surprised. I had 60's marshalls that sounded lifeless with russian power valves and e34ls i could never get what i wanted out of them. I wanted that 60's peter green vibe clapton esque sounds as this 60's marshall i have was 1 of the studio amps he used i could never get that sound until i tried the chinese.

I have had so many compliments on my old marshalls with these valves in them but around the 100hr mark is when they break in and sound even better and unlike other valves i find the russian ones are matched absolutely out of spec some of my russians were 30mV out of spec with each other and that was a matched pair! now chinese match with in approx 1mV the most extreme match you want is 10mV

[demonufo]

my conversations with these guys NOS power valves can make a difference but a lot of it is hocus pocus and thing is NOS power valves well the gasses change over the years etc

Only if the vacuum isn't sealed properly (read: shit quality tube). That's pretty much a load of old horse do-do.

I still prefer old tubes to anything else, by a BIG margin. The only others I particularly liked are Winged C's, but the current ones are not as good as they were circa '00.


Current Chinese tubes, to my ears at least, have more headroom, less organic breakup, and sound less like EL34's than New Sensor Mullard, Winged C, Electro Harmonix, or JJ EL34's do. I'm told they're fantastic for higher voltages though.


As for New Sensor Mullard, vs JJ, well, I'm not 100% mad on the JJ, BUT I had a few inconsistency and reliability issues with the New Sensor Mullard EL34's a while back (wildly different performing tubes, no mismatches, just very VERY different batches), and a couple of pairs (from the same batch) that just insisted on red-plating and having runaway bias issues (was not there with ANY other type of power tube I had to hand, and that's quite a lot.)

Couldn't tell you how long ANY of the new production tubes last, but I've not had any fail in other guys amps I've fitted them to within a year. (Most of the amps I see get scheduled regularly), and I pretty much use 70's Tesla's exclusively myself.

[johniss0001]

"Only if the vacuum isn't sealed properly (read: shit quality tube). That's pretty much a load of old horse do-do.

I still prefer old tubes to anything else, by a BIG margin."

very true i forgot to mention this my bad. Like i said that was from my experience and my conversations with valve gurus i always use nos pre amps.

I love the headroom of the chinese to me they have that sound and yes they can handle the high voltages I have a quad in my 68 laney supergroup that has 600V! and my 70 super pa that has 520V and in my super pa mixed with nos pre amps it nails koss and very early 70's rock'n'roll. I put some in an 86 jcm800 for a client and he heard that amp with me playing through it and he was like the amp sounds very different more headroom. I said to the guy well you could put valves in it that have more mids etc and can sound more aggressive but these other valves won't necesseraly be reliable and the chinese i haven't had a single problem.

One thing i have noticed with them and muls is that the stock marshall bias circuit doesn't get the class hot enough i.e. i could only get 28mV on a typical 100 watter i had the change the 47k resistor to 39k to give me more range on my bias.

In order to get what you want somethings have to be sacrificed there is no be all and end all valve every valve has their merits. The chinese valves may not be 100% perfect but they do the job and i can't afford £200+ on nos glass that's just rediculous especially if it's a gigging amp the audience doesn't really care too much about what guitars or amps you use.

Compared to normal el34s the chinese are rated around 30 watts per valve and typically your sovteks are around 25

[BAinFL]

Use the Wing "C" they last longer and sound better.

this...

not sure about the last longer part as I've only used my set for a couple of months so far, but they have a reputation for holding up really well. And I will concur that they sound great in my amp to my ears.

[revolver1]

Concurence is a great thing

Guys, thanks for getting in on this. I was a bit bummed out with the response when I started this thread but the conversation and info now is just fantastic.

To answer your question johniss way back in the thread about speakers, To be honest I've only ever really used Celestions. I first had the G12M 75w 4x12 with a Laney pro tube lead 50w head, they're allright but wasn't overly impressed I felt there had to be something else out there to contribute to the tone I'm after. Then I thought full stack 25w Greenback (reissue) was the way to go with a Plexi RI, get back to what my hero's were using in the first place. Then i realised most of 'em were using up rated speakers to avoid blow out's since they'ed up rated the power out put on their amps. (probably to over come the blocked ear syndrome from all the gak they were doing). I found however there was a lack of bass response with the Green backs. I liked to record solo's with one green back cab and one vintage 30 cab (blending a mic on each). But live one cab was enough to avoid too much attenuation. I picked up a Hughes & Kettener cab with vintage Celestions and thought wow thats it. So then I got Marshall to make me a 4x12 straight front not angled for better bass response with vintage Celestion 30's (I beleive they're not actully 30 watts each) but cosmetically with the 70's basket weave cloth. I love this cab, It delivers all that I want. Its together for the clean tones and breakes up slightly with the dirt but above all it's got warmth and looks the part to boot.

I initially posted the questions on valves because the PT I'm looking at getting has a 465v or 500v option. And I was a bit concerned wether the 500v version would massacre current production valves. I've never actully tried NOS output's and am worried I may be opening a can of worm's financially as I re valve every 12 months, but I absolutly 100% agree NOS pre amp's are the way to fly. The difference with NOS pre's was so good I'm intrested to hear the diff with NOS output's. I may well stick with Groove E34Ls (they do work for what I want) to start in my new build and then experiment (if I escape testicals intact from she who must be obayed on this new build). Nobody seems to have much opinion on the RI Mullards, I gather there not much cop with high plate voltages? I guess what I'm looking for is a 3D structure but neutral. What I put in is what I want to get out. Been using Mullard pre's but definately want to try Telefunken (to hell with the expense you only build an amp once, at least thats what I tell the wife).

[hdahs]

The RI Mullards will be fine with 460v on the plates. If you opt for the 500V pt, you might want to go for the winged C's, as they will hold up at these voltages. As a matter of fact, Bogner specifies these in his EL34 Shiva, for that reason.

I work in an amp repair shop, and like the winged C's quite a bit. And even though I don't delve too much into tone discussions because it is just too subjective, I've yet to have a customer not be very happy with these, especially with JCM2000 series Marshalls. I've ran them in my Matchless Clubman because they sound decent, and hold up well, and that amp is hard on the power tubes.

My complaint with the winged C's is the cost. In the same world market and economy, they have drastically increased in price over the last couple of years in comparison to everything else on the market. I've put the RI Mullards in customers Marshalls and thought they sounded good. So purchased a pair from Dougs Tubes and installed them. I've only had a low volume run in the garage, but they sound good so far. More prominent mids and warmer to my ear. I will gig with it this weekend and report back. Dougstubes.com has a couple of reviews as well

[johniss0001]

no worries revolver it's all good. if you can afford it get afew different types of power valve the e34l, el34b etc try them out and listen to them i did this with my gear and the chinese el34b won everytime in all of my amps especially my sound citys also as those are valve hungry amps for me as a musician i want that relibility and consistency the chinese do it everytime it's all subjective.
Vintage 30s are rated at 65 watts each and again they are a marmite speaker my mate from saxon swears by them.
Revalve every 12 months that's quite a dumper on the wallet but it depends on how often and how hard the amp is worked when i was gigging back up in scotland i was revalving every 2-3 years so i have only had 1 set of el34s in my old marshall since the jjs went south.

As stated nos can be fantastic but i disagree with paying £200+ for a quad of el34s for what "maybe" a crap quad of valves if you go out and get some chinese and do a comparisson for poops and laughs and you come to the conclusion that hmmm these are very similar to nos tone wise you may felt you have wasted your dough. However, if i had the cash i would have a stash of mullards for studio amps as those can bring in more money.