Scumback M75 pre rola sound like advertised?

[Ruben]

Anyway, let's not get carried away here, I personally think it's a good thing to have a discussion going, not attacking you by any means. Though I can remember some tough words from you by mail.

Yes, I remember the email you sent me saying the speakers sounded like crap and you couldn't figure out what the problem was. Then you actually opened the cab and found you took home the 2x12 with the V30's in them, and thought they were the Scumback M75's you just got. I read my reply and I was pretty gracious about that mistake.

There were some tough words on your part for sure. Let's not try to rewrite history, ok? Merry Xmas to you and yours, in spite of this thread you've started.

I wasn't referring to that Jim...I was laughing my ass off when that happened. indeed.
I was referring to something else. Anyway, I won't go into that, have yourself a good christmas
Quess it's just not done discussing products built by people who post/read here.

So.....still have trouble with advertising pre-rola sound while handeling higher power?!???
I still just don't get that part.... perhaps I'm just stupid

[JimiJames]

......Quess it's just not done discussing products built by people who post/read here.....

hmm Being non biased here...
I understand about the initial posted question.
If you are expecting a different answer from members of this amp forum it won't happen...
Not saying that you don't but, there are many knowledgeable members here with experience, time & grade - hands on.
Semi-pro to Pro...You will get a straight no BS response/answer... (other than Jim's)
With a reply like that you're gonna have members here that you trust tell you to post on Harmony Central lol.
....and we don't want that, right?
So am I correct to say that when you placed your order that Jim's recommendation was tailored to your needs..?

[the boogie man]

I just wanted to chime in here. I just received some speakers from Jim and I couldn't be more pleased. They DEFINITELY have that greenback sound. My friends and I OWN pre-rolas and Rolas; Scumbacks ARE THE REAL DEAL.

I wouldn't advise doing that Jim. One guitar, one good 30w or 50w amp, a 1X12 or 2X12 cab respectively, same player, same settings, SM57, simple recording setup, and no more than 10 seconds of sound with a single riff or a few chords. If you like, do it first at 25% volume in the first half of the clip, then repeat at 100%. Everything identical except the speaker itself.

I gotta disagree with you here. Speakers are reactive, and one's need to adjust their amps EQ in order to optimize the sound of the speaker.

[Ruben]

Then just agree to disagree OK?

[Ted B]

I gotta disagree with you here. Speakers are reactive, and one's need to adjust their amps EQ in order to optimize the sound of the speaker.

Speaking for myself, if I can plainly hear how a unfamiliar speaker (e.g. M75 HP) sounds compared to a speaker that is familiar to (e.g. M75) in a static situation, then I know what expect, and won't have any unpleasant surprises like the OP did. What an unfamiliar speaker sounds like when manipulated by someone else, with their equipment, without any basis for comparison isn't as useful.

[Scumback Speakers]

Speaking for myself, if I can plainly hear how a unfamiliar speaker (e.g. M75 HP) sounds compared to a speaker that is familiar to (e.g. M75) in a static situation, then I know what expect, and won't have any unpleasant surprises like the OP did. What an unfamiliar speaker sounds like when manipulated by someone else, with their equipment, without any basis for comparison isn't as useful.

That's not the case here, though, based on what I'm hearing. Ruben was happy with the M75 65w speakers for some time, then he wasn't. It took over 12 months for that to happen. It's anyone's guess what happened during that time. Now he has a set of pre rola speakers he just acquired. Which exact models/year/cone/condition/etc is also not known, he says they're mint condition. And in any case, his current set of speakers is not what was used to recreate mine, so it's all academic. If every pre rola G12M/G12H30 sounded the same, I wouldn't have had to buy so many to find the best ones to recreate. If it was easy I would have thought someone else would have recreated that tone before I did.

As for recordings there are two schools of thought I've read about. One says to set all the EQ settings the same and record the different speakers with one EQ setting. Sounds good in theory, the only problem being that one EQ setting will only be optimal for the speaker you used to set that EQ setting, and not as optimal for the rest. So you have to decide which one is the EQ setting standard speaker.

The other school of thought is to EQ each speaker to it's best individual optimal EQ setting, then record it. Personally I favor this approach, using the same amp/guitar/player/lick/mic, etc. Everyone hears their tone differently anyway, so all you can hope for is a recording close to what you'd like to hear. And each player will set the EQ differently as he/she hears it when they're playing, too.

So I'm not sure how you could set a "base reference speaker and EQ setting" that would be fair to 4-5 different speakers in a comparison situation that would work for everyone listening.

Conversely, some players will want a Strat used, others a Tele or Les Paul or SG. Some will want a 50w, or 100w. Some will want a tweed Fender. As you can see, the options to cater to everyone listening would become endless.

And finally, using a pre rola as the reference is also a crap shoot. They varied all over the tone map, in my experience. So even pulling out my 1971 G12M 102 003 cone speaker used for the M75 25w wouldn't apply to anything but that speaker, since the 65 and 100w add more bass and less treble due to the voice coil changes. While I'm able to EQ out those changes with minor adjustments to bass & treble, maybe others can't. Maybe their amps aren't using NOS glass, and the particular trannies I used. Maybe their amps aren't biased the same, or have some other issues. There are just too many variables here.

Like I said, in a perfect world, you'd have unlimited resources, recording time, guitars/amps/cabs/mics, and speakers.We don't live in that perfect world, unfortunately.

Ruben has an opinion. He's entitled to it. Let him have it. I don't agree with it, I'm entitled to that, too.

[Janglin_Jack]

Feeling like something didn't measure up should be able make that conclusion in a brief window, (few days to a week). To prefer something else is a preference. We are all going to fall in and out of love with things.

To jump on a forum, and call out a maker of speakers, (very good speakers) to say I like these better, well is just chicken shit. I don't think you call into question someone's speakers are "hype", cause you think you like some other speakers. Cut your losses and sell the speakers. To get on a forum and call someone a liar and call into question his product is unacceptable. You either have an agenda for your actions, or you just don't know when to shut up.

Ban this Ruben dope off the forum, (please Mr Moderator). We are all entitled to say our peace, this post sounds like Scumback is stealing by making inferior speakers. They are top notch, and compare very favorably with vintage speakers they are emulating.

Mike

[irwin4star]

I have over 30 pre rola (102 cone) gb's from '67 through '73, including two 20w sets from '67 and early 68 code on gasket ( picked those two quads out of 5 sets of 20's). Have a craplaod of cabs, some from late 60's, some from early 70's and a bunch of new ones... Germino (Ken Jones), mojo, avatar, Marshall HW's all kinds. I've been a/b'ing speakers for about 5 years. I've got two dial switch boxes (6 position each) with one input (from head) to 6 outs and can at anytime switch on the fly. I always use a looper, record chords, riff, whatever, then put the guitar back on the wall to free my mind and self up totally for tone. Let's me screw with tubes, circuit, switch heads, whatever... Same riff, same attack, same feel, just loop it over and over and over. I've even laid speakers out on the floor to take the cab out of the equation and go directly to each speaker from the switch box. I've had every clone you can buy. Even tried to get some of the aliens or whatever they were called (that dude is a trip on the phone). Anyway, bored yet? So... All new clones were broken in long enough (or attempted as some didnt live even though power was always on conservative side from variac) to get to my target ('71 greenback from an old guy that told me he recorded hundreds of hits with IT. He's a luthier now in southern Maryland. Some clones never got there, some got close, some, I can't tell the difference. No shit. The m75 65 watter after about 90 hours on a variac (was made in 2008) I cannot tell the diff. On a good day I think I can, but it's only in the top end. But that '71 has been dogged for 30 years. The m75 25 waters have a slightly different midrange than my target. Kindof like an eeee, and my target is a ahhh. The 65 watter does the ahhhh. A couple speakers really did surprise me. The mojo BV-m and BV-h's are very good right out of the box. I did a weber mytone twice with m magnet, and 65 watts, one in 2008 and one in 2010. They are very authentic also. 90% of all the clones are waaay brighter than my target. That's why I always dig the 65 watters cause they're darker. On my target, I can crank the mids and treble cause that's where the tone lives in marshalls. If I do that with clones my forehead bleeds. I've done the heavy magnet speakers also but they are always way bright and way scooped to me with my rigs. The only exception I've found is the BV-30h. Hell, that thing right out of the box had more mids and lower mids than some of my m magnets. Amps are Blankenship variplex, bray black flag 50 (tube rect), Top hat emplexador, Granger M50, two Whitney JTM45's (one is in a BB 2x12) and a 1978 JMP100 previously owned by Sonny Dhak of three inches of blood maintained by none other than Ho the attenuator dude lol. 3 sg's (one is a Honduran tokai, one an elitist) and 5 lp's of various years and flavors. I have 3 M magnet speakers on a variac in the garage as I type. I'm obsessed haaaaa!!!

[irwin4star]

Oh, I also use that looper deal to do all kinds of other comparisons... Strings, top wrap/standard, pickups, bridge post material, all kinds of stuff. I'll lay down one riff, then make a change and do the riff again, then hang my stuff up and evaluate riffs back to back over and over and over. Jim, I think this is how you need to do speaker comparos. Have the talent in for like 10 minutes, lay down some stuff, then you're up. The track will be 100% the same for all speaker clips. And you can swap stuff for days, without having to supply beer. Just keep the looper plugged into a battery backup cause if your power goes out, you'll be pissed lol.

[irwin4star]

Oh, and another thing... I've ordered quads of speakers, the EVH celestions were the latest and when I loaded them into two, 2x12's, that I have wired so I can run each speaker separately, they don't sound the same. One sounds stiff and bright, and the other, dark and woofy. All brand new So you really do have to listen to each independently and evaluate. I also had two weber 1225's, same order, sound different. Had 6402 cone greenbacks from early 80's never mounted before I got them, one bright and 3d, one flat... Same date code.

[frenchie]

Speaking about cones ....it's not really astonishing that unhomogenous ( difference in 3d locations and differences in shapes of the particles ) paperpulp clusters dipped into glue from a microscopic standpoint can create huge macroscopic differences in mecanical and resonnance properties of a whole cone , this lead to unavoidable inconsistency from one to another .... to me ( from what i understand ) the only way consistency can be achieved is at the price of reducing the dissimilarities between clusters , i.e ; mashing up the paper even thinner into the preparation , so the influence of the length of the fibers become neglectable , but then the cone would basically be a cone reacting more like a dryed up cone of glue than reacting like a cone of paper , hence reducing wave disspiation of some frequencies due to an increased stiffness ....
that is to say , if ya wan't to have a brand that have a huge constency , you'll end up buying a stiff chinese celestion , it'll sound like poo probably , but if you blow it up , just go to the next store and you'll be able to buy the same exact souding one .... if you wan't a ol' grail sounding speaker , you'll have to take a gamble and buy a speaker from a brand that source their cones where they are till made the old way ( i.e ; not too much mashed up paper pulp ) , it's the same approach as with guitar , ya know the dead wood /lively wood thing , you can buy a dog or the next one on the rack that is a god sent , yeah for the same price that the depressing part , but anyway that also make the treasure finding game a little more exciting no ?
I mean wether or not jim's speakers conform exactly to a variable by nature soundprint is not the question , does he follow the producing methods that made SOME of the pre rolas the greatest speakers ever made to tame the hyper agressive highs of kranked superleads ... i think we can grant him that intention yes ... and so far if we are able buy speakers which conform to our dreams also in other brands it's mainly because he kicked in the butt the other big players in the buisness , showing at a vegas gamble price there was a effectively a market where the guys in black suits only saw financial risks , it requires a pair of balls and a STRONG BELIEF IN YOUR OWN PRODUCT ..... there's a reason snake oil sellers were intinerent , when buyers realised , they had to get the hell out , fast , a thing not really possible into the wwweb era and even less possible when you have invested the skin of your ass into new producing facility ........ if you ask me , balls and belief are pretty far off attributes for an all out scammer from what i know ... still happy with my ted weber era h75s for what i can tell , but i may have been lucky ...

[Big Mike]

Are you also pissed because your superbass doesnt sound like jimi's?


Just curious

Frankly I can't tell a well broken in scumback m75 from the pre-rola

And I tried. Hard. I'm a skeptICal beeyotch

Sounds to me like you cooked the coils

[Ruben]

Are you also pissed because your superbass doesnt sound like jimi's?
Just curious Frankly I can't tell a well broken in scumback m75 from the pre-rola
And I tried. Hard. I'm a skeptICal beeyotch Sounds to me like you cooked the coils

I'm very, very happy my Superbass doesn't sound like Jimmy's cause frankly I don't even like his sound.
Like his playing though!
But, anyway....What kind of comment is that....?
If you can't even tell the difference between a M75 and a pre-rola.....well...I quess that's your problem

Sorry guys to even discus Jim's speaker cause it's clearly not done to criticise his stuff in any way.
I've been very polite.

[irwin4star]

Ruben, if you heard the m75's I have, you would pick them over the pre-rolas. You have to keep in mind that speakers will vary alot. It's something that I've seen over and over. Put them back on the variac and do it until the bottom and low mids come in.... You'll hear it, it just takes time. I've got 80+ hours on some before they loosened up. Tell you what.. take one of your pre rolas out and your scumback out, lay them on the floor and gently and slightly excurse the cone on each. If the scumback cone feels stiffer, it will sound stiffer. Hell, I'll ship you my 65w M75 for free so you can feel and hear it.

[Scumback Speakers]

Sorry to even discus Jim's speaker cause it's clearly not done to criticise his stuff in any way.
I've been very polite.
By the way: If you can't tell the difference between a M75 and a pre-rola.....well...I quess that's you problem

Just so you know, Ruben, I sent my 1971 G12M pre rola out with the original M75 prototype to several people in California to listen to when I got it finalized after many prototypes. Of the 8-10 people who it went to for comparison listening tests, Big Mike was one of them. So he knows exactly what a pre rola sounds like, and more importantly, he knows exactly what a "holy grail" pre rola G12M sounds like.

So you've been very polite, huh? Let's see...first you basically call me a liar. Then you go on to insinuate that people on this forum don't know what a good pre rola sounds like, and that I've "hyped" them all...even though they've had their own pre rola speakers or heard mine vs the M75 prototype.

Then you do your best to naysay, undermine, and "not criticize" my speakers, reputation and advertising claims, with some thinly veiled contempt or sarcasm.

Look, it's this simple. Here in America we say "Put up or shut up!"

That means you should have have posted a clip of your defective M75's vs your pre rolas. You didn't. You sold them and said you lost a bunch of money instead. Instead you went well beyond (over the top some might say) what would be necessary to try and make it look like I ripped people off.

I know you had the Weber era (blue frame) Scumback M75's. After posting clips of how nice they sounded (your words) back on 6/4/11 and emailing the link to me, we discussed adding the clip to my site when it was reworked. You then sent me all of your band site info and the clip (here below) to add to the site as well when it was reworked.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mox4O0e76-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There have been some sporadic reliability issues with those blue frame speakers after some use. Sometimes they last years, sometimes they last days. Of course, cranking a dimed 100w Super Bass into two 65w speakers wasn't going to last, but you did it anyway. Somehow that seems to have become my fault, even though you were warned and knew better than to do this.

So out of curiosity, you seem to have an agenda/purpose to all of this...would you care to discuss that? I always find it interesting when people post comments like yours without any backup or proof to what they're saying/posting. It is usually a sign of having an attitude or agenda, both of which seem to be prevalent in your posts.

Well, sir, there's your youtube video link you sent me above, aka the proof of how they sounded. So that's the one dimensional/flat/dull speakers in action, right? The ones that dont' sound like pre rolas, etc?

Why were you trying to get your clip and your website listed on my site then? You truly have me baffled with all of this, I must say. Well, I guess you have your reasons for doing this. I just (and I think most here on Metro) can't figure them out. But your whole thread here has made you look like someone with a passive/aggressive childish gripe that can't explain what it is.

I'm glad you like your pre rola speakers you bought, good for you. I'm sure you'll burn those up like you have in the past, and probably the two M75's you had as well.

I wonder if we'll see a thread posted about how "I fried my pre rolas tonight!" when that happens?

Somehow I doubt it. But I'm sure we'll hear more about how the M75's you loved six months ago suddenly are the worst speakers you ever bought at some point.