Scumback M75 pre rola sound like advertised?

[Ruben]

After probably 60 hours break in time I still couldn't hear the promised 'Greenback' or for that matter 'Pre Rola' sound.
The speakers just sounded lifeless, stiff and flat to me.
The only thing which was nice they could handle the power of a dimed 100 watt...

So, is it just me or are we just following a hype?
The Scumbacks are nice speakers but no way they can compete with pre rola's...
'Sound recreation of the G12M Pre Rola era "Greenback"' ??????....not really!
Perhaps mine M75's I ordered were just an exception? Could be!?

Just recently I scored me a quad of pre rola G12M speakers and probably needless to say I sold the Scumbacks immediately.
I did lose a lot of money though.

I think it's fair to be honest, right? No disrespect intented

[awangotango]

I agree, nothing sounds like the originals. It's apples and oranges, but if you are forced to buy oranges, scumbacks are you're best bet.

[908ssp]

Sorry but this is a wrong. Did you return them? Have them checked to see if they were defective? When were they made? I have five sets of vintage speakers and three sets of Scumbacks and if I match up like types you can hardly tell them apart. Just silly to bash a product after you sold them and when you haven't done due diligence to see if they have a problem. It's possible your vintage speakers could have the problem and what you hear from them is not the typical "pre-rola" sound.

[Ruben]

I have actually heard a couple of other very well broken in M75's and H75's in other players cabs and and to
my surprise they just sounded the same, like mine.

The speakers I had weren't broke, no way.
I was just wondering if it's okay to advertise with pre rola sound and not delivering it.
Quess I'll just had to send them back. My bad I quess

Anyway the pre rola's I currently own are mint condition

[SteadyEddie]

Some sort of audio/video comparison would have been helpful.

[Ruben]

Yeah that's true SteadyEddie

Anyway, just my 0.02 cents

[Scumback Speakers]

Ruben...after a few clips you've posted from live shows, plus the emails you sent me, this does come as a surprise thread for me.

My M75 was based on a 1971 G12M 25w w/102 003 cone. The original was a low power 25w version. When the 65w and 100w models came out (in response to client demand) that meant the voice coil formers had to change to something that handled more power (heat), and due that the bass response was increased, treble slightly decreased. You also needed to get them in the right dynamic range for power usage (so two 100w would be the right choice for a cranked 100w amp, not two 65w versions). The right dynamic range in my experience is from 30-90% of their rated power handling. You bought the 65w versions. When I first heard from you it was great, now sometime later (14 months) and playing them with your 100w Super Bass for over a year, they suddenly are bad. It sounds to me like you cooked them with your power/amp settings. And of course, with the issues I've uncovered with my former supplier's build quality and parts swapping, there's absolutely no way for me to tell if they failed due to a substandard build, or if you just sent them too much power.

I've had plenty of clients cook their pre rolas with a 100w Marshall through a single 4x12, knowing they're going to do so because they love that sound of speakers pushed real hard, and about to die. Hey, that's fine, but just realize if you push a speaker to it's absolute breaking point all the time, sooner or later it will fail. So I'm happy you got some pre rolas you're happy with, but you'd better be careful with these at the levels you're playing. I've heard about it too many times from previous clients not to believe that as a fact.

Sorry you feel the M75 65w weren't "exact" pre rola toned speakers compared to yours, but since they are one of my most popular models, and based on a pre rola you don't own, this is all pretty subjective as to "how close they are" to your speaker, when they are based on a different pre rola speaker I owned and you haven't heard.

In the course of buying well over 400 pre rola speakers and over 100 (post 1973) Rola Celestions from 1997-2005, I had a pretty large sample size to choose from, which was the basis for the speaker models I offer. One of the things I found out was that there was a wide variation in tone within the G12M & G12H30 models I owned. My guess is that your speakers sound different from my originals. That doesn't surprise me one bit. What ultimately sounds the best to any player is what he feels works for him the best. I don't begrudge you your opinion one bit. I would still play my pre rolas exclusively if I felt I could get away with cranking a 100w through a single 4x12, but I know better. They'll get killed by the volume/power.

But if you're asking if my M75's sound like my 1971 G12M pre rola 102 003 coned speaker, the answer is "Yes, they do."

Do they sound like whatever you just bought? Obviously not. That doesn't make your pre rolas the best sounding ones on the planet. It also doesn't make my pre rolas the best sounding on the planet (I'm all ga ga over the paper voice coil models frankly), but based on almost 20,000 Scumbacks sold over 7 years, there are a few others out there that would disagree with you, including me.

Just want to be real about this, not get hurt by your opinion. You're entitled to it, I don't have a problem with your opinion. But I think the presentation of it could have been better for sure.

[JimiJames]

Ruben...after a few clips you've posted from live shows, plus the emails you sent me, this does come as a surprise thread for me.

My M75 was based on a 1971 G12M 25w w/102 003 cone. The original was a low power 25w version. When the 65w and 100w models came out (in response to client demand) that meant the voice coil formers had to change to something that handled more power (heat), and due that the bass response was increased, treble slightly decreased. You also needed to get them in the right dynamic range for power usage (so two 100w would be the right choice for a cranked 100w amp, not two 65w versions). The right dynamic range in my experience is from 30-90% of their rated power handling. You bought the 65w versions. When I first heard from you it was great, now sometime later (14 months) and playing them with your 100w Super Bass for over a year, they suddenly are bad. It sounds to me like you cooked them with your power/amp settings. And of course, with the issues I've uncovered with my former supplier's build quality and parts swapping, there's absolutely no way for me to tell if they failed due to a substandard build, or if you just sent them too much power.

I've had plenty of clients cook their pre rolas with a 100w Marshall through a single 4x12, knowing they're going to do so because they love that sound of speakers pushed real hard, and about to die. Hey, that's fine, but just realize if you push a speaker to it's absolute breaking point all the time, sooner or later it will fail. So I'm happy you got some pre rolas you're happy with, but you'd better be careful with these at the levels you're playing. I've heard about it too many times from previous clients not to believe that as a fact.

Sorry you feel the M75 65w weren't "exact" pre rola toned speakers compared to yours, but since they are one of my most popular models, and based on a pre rola you don't own, this is all pretty subjective as to "how close they are" to your speaker, when they are based on a different pre rola speaker I owned and you haven't heard.

In the course of buying well over 400 pre rola speakers and over 100 (post 1973) Rola Celestions from 1997-2005, I had a pretty large sample size to choose from, which was the basis for the speaker models I offer. One of the things I found out was that there was a wide variation in tone within the G12M & G12H30 models I owned. My guess is that your speakers sound different from my originals. That doesn't surprise me one bit. What ultimately sounds the best to any player is what he feels works for him the best. I don't begrudge you your opinion one bit. I would still play my pre rolas exclusively if I felt I could get away with cranking a 100w through a single 4x12, but I know better. They'll get killed by the volume/power.

But if you're asking if my M75's sound like my 1971 G12M pre rola 102 003 coned speaker, the answer is "Yes, they do."

Do they sound like whatever you just bought? Obviously not. That doesn't make your pre rolas the best sounding ones on the planet. It also doesn't make my pre rolas the best sounding on the planet (I'm all ga ga over the paper voice coil models frankly), but based on almost 20,000 Scumbacks sold over 7 years, there are a few others out there that would disagree with you, including me.

Just want to be real about this, not get hurt by your opinion. You're entitled to it, I don't have a problem with your opinion. But I think the presentation of it could have been better for sure.

+1
Mistaken speaker identity here, Ruben?

[Ted B]

I wouldn't expect any G12M clone that carries a 65w power rating to sound like the original 25w speaker. It may sound more like an original G12M than a later 65w Celestion, but if one is expecting it to sound exactly like the original 25w but with higher power rating, he's likely to be disappointed. The tradeoff is peace of mind if one is using a 4X12 with 100w amp. Which path to take is strictly an individual decision.

Also, I want to point out that the speakers Pete Thorn is using in the video to compare against the new 'PVC' G12M and G12H are the 'HP' versions, and not the 25 and 30w originals. Given what's been observed in this discussion, the audible differences heard in the video will be more vivid vs. these HPs as opposed to the 25 and 30w versions.

[Ruben]

Hi Jim, I respect your story, I really do.
Perhaps I could have explained better I quess?...!?
Sorry for that. Not intented that way.

So, now that's cleared out (at least for me) there's this sound issue

I too have heard great clips from Pete Thorn (awesome player by the way) and those clips sound great.
BUT...after 60 hours of playing and rockin out, I personally still felt they sounded flat (that's a matter of taste I quess)
That's just one persons opinion. And since everyone is free to speak their minds I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

I have had a couple pre rola's before,some good, some just heavenly.
Blew enough speakers also

Anyway, let's not get carried away here, I personally think it's a good thing to have a discussion going, not attacking you by any means. Though I can remember some tough words from you by mail.

[Ruben]

I wouldn't expect any G12M clone that carries a 65w power rating to sound like the original 25w speaker. It may sound more like an original G12M than a later 65w Celestion, but if one is expecting it to sound exactly like the original 25w but with higher power rating, he's likely to be disappointed. The tradeoff is peace of mind if one is using a 4X12 with 100w amp. Which path to take is strictly an individual decision.

Exactly, but then, why advertise with pre rola sound capable of handeling higher power?!??? I don't get that part....
You know what I mean?

[Scumback Speakers]

Anyway, let's not get carried away here, I personally think it's a good thing to have a discussion going, not attacking you by any means. Though I can remember some tough words from you by mail.

Yes, I remember the email you sent me saying the speakers sounded like crap and you couldn't figure out what the problem was. Then you actually opened the cab and found you took home the 2x12 with the V30's in them, and thought they were the Scumback M75's you just got. I read my reply and I was pretty gracious about that mistake.

There were some tough words on your part for sure. Let's not try to rewrite history, ok? Merry Xmas to you and yours, in spite of this thread you've started.

[Ted B]

Exactly, but then, why advertise with pre rola sound capable of handeling higher power?!??? I don't get that part.... You know what I mean?

I empathize with your frustration and realize all of this is after the fact at this point. This experience makes for good reason to mention how increasing power handling affects the original character of the speaker in the Scumback website FAQ.

Personally, I feel the product descriptions, audio files, and FAQ on the Scumback website could be improved. For example, I find the audio files lacking. What would be far more useful is to have one guitar, amplifier, cabinet (e.g. 2X12), and microphone/recording setup that is used to record a single lick with the same player and settings. Every individual speaker that Scumback makes (and original pre-Rolas) should be recorded this way, so that if one wants to hear the difference between an M75, M75 PVC, G12M 75 w/003, and M75 HP, it should be as easy as the click of a mouse.

[Scumback Speakers]

The website is going through a complete re-work right now, actually. All of the pages are going to be updated, and most of the soundfiles, too.I'm not going to be able to do all of this without setting up my own recording computer again, though. The amount of speaker swapping/recording/etc for Pete Thorn to do it is just not feasible.

And the best way to do it right, IMO, would be to optimize each speaker with the best EQ setting on a given amp/guitar so that you hear each speaker in it's best possible tone representation. I did that 6 years ago in 2005, but that took two days for five speakers and as you can imagine, wasn't a cheap date, nor was it easy to assemble all of the gear/players/recording engineers, etc to get it done.

Of course, in a perfect world, I would do what Ted B has suggested. However, that reality is a little ways off due to the complexities of dialing it all in. Even then, of course, someone would say "Those don't sound like my pre rola G12M's!" so I have to wonder how effective it would be, right?

If I had limitless studio time and money...sure, no problem. Sadly, I don't.

[Ted B]

And the best way to do it right, IMO, would be to optimize each speaker with the best EQ setting on a given amp/guitar so that you hear each speaker in it's best possible tone representation.

I wouldn't advise doing that Jim. One guitar, one good 30w or 50w amp, a 1X12 or 2X12 cab respectively, same player, same settings, SM57, simple recording setup, and no more than 10 seconds of sound with a single riff or a few chords. If you like, do it first at 25% volume in the first half of the clip, then repeat at 100%. Everything identical except the speaker itself. No effects, or any of that nonsense. This is quick and easy, and with a set of clips (no soldering), can be done with every product you make inside of a day. Anything else just un-evens the playing field and muddies the picture. Anyone with a brain can extrapolate the end result. Anyone without a brain you don't want buying your speakers.

Also, I would categorize your speakers simply (e.g. M series), and list the various options to choose from under that listing. Those options include (55 or 75Hz, PVC or Kapton, GB or BB, power rating, etc.). I would add a description and check box for each option that concludes into a final unit configuration. I would also make a point of noting which versions were used in which era, which cabs, and who might have used them.