Metropoulos Forum

I know there are hundred of topics like this, i hope you will forgive me...
It's time for me to buy serious speakers for my MetroAmp 45/100, i have a marshall 1960bhw 4x12 with Celestion G12H Heritage 55s and i'm not satisfied at all with them. These speakers sound horrible: trebly and stiff. They sound tolerable until the volume is on 4, after that they're very very harsh. I bought a 45/100 for playing loud, so i need new speakers.
Finally i found someone here in Europe who sells Scumback M75s and H75s. Previously I had the opportunity to play with an original basketwave cab with G12M 75 pre-rola, they sound great but they lack a bit of bass and definition in my opinion, maybe this thing is due to the the fact they're very old.

My questions are these:
Are the M75 a bit tighter than very old G12Ms?
Do the H75 have the same definition and bass response of the Heritage G12H without being harsh?
My concern is about the way the speaker breaks-up the Heritage is ok until the amp distorts. With a les paul dimed it sounds nasty like the guitar on Strange Brew in Disraeli Gears.
Anyone has experience with M75 or H75 with a 45/100?

Thanks

Scumback M75 and H75 are very different. I owned a 412 with heritage 55s and gigged it constantly for a couple of years so I'm familiar with those and they never totally lost the edge they had when new. I've never tried original M75s but i do have a '71 cab with all original H55s which makes an awesome noise but not that efficient compared with the heritages. I'd guess then that the original pre rola M75s are even less so.

As far as heritage H55s vs sumback H75s it's no contest. Scumback H75s have plenty of bass and would be a big step up from the heritage speaker, much warmer breakup and way more tuneful midrange, they're in no way a stiff speaker. If you're using them in a closed back cab, especially 412 you'll have all the lows and punch you could need. I've tried two of Jim's H55s in a 212 and there was too much bass if that gives you an idea and although some guys on here have went that way from what I've read, going for all bass cones isn't a good idea, also the Scumback H55 has way more bass than the heritage. I think that the Scumback bass cone is a real triumph in terms of capturing the warmth and darkish tones of original pre rolas, sometime in the future I really want to try an M55, I think it's a speaker that's overlooked. From the Scumbacks I've used the M75 has a really soft musical 'flutey' midrange breakup in abundance but not as focused as the H75 or as defined in the highs. The H75s can cover a lot of styles and do soulful cornell dupree cleans as well as they do dirty hendrix.

BTW who in Europe is selling Sumbacks?

SB Monster wrote:BTW who in Europe is selling Sumbacks?

Nobody yet. I've got a dealer in Germany, ProGuitar. I've got a new dealer coming on board in Canada soon, and in France. I'll get the "overseas dealer" list going as soon as it's finalized. For now, UK clients can order direct.

Thanks SB Monster, after your reply i've decided, in the next days i'm going to order 4 H75s 65 watt!

ok now i'm just jealous, that'll be a great cab!

Problem is Pro Guitar sells M75s for 297$ plus shipping. It's quite a difference to 169$ in the US...

Hmm, I just checked what 229 Euros converts to and you're correct, 229.00 EUR = 300.643 USD.

A single M75 shipped to EU is around $260-275 after shipping, FBI and paypal fees. Germany has VAT of 18%, so as nuts as it seems, that's probably close to what you'd pay if you bought one and had it shipped to Europe. I get $306.80 USD if you multiply 260 x 1.18.

So main benefit from buying those from ProGuitar is easier warranty processing. I do realize it probably cannot be done cheaper but you know... 300$ for a single speaker is just too much. I'd love to have those though. I'm currently building a 12k plexi and I'll have to get either a good attenuator or stronger speakers to replace my quad of 25W greenbacks. Or both.

A quad of M75's shipped to Germany (for example) is $838.81 USD (including four speakers w/o FBI, shipping, paypal fees). Add on 18% VAT and that comes to $989.80 USD or $755 Euros. It gets cheaper when you buy four since shipping isn't as much.

" I've got a new dealer coming on board in Canada soon"

Who is it gonna be? When is it going to happen?

AkrW wrote:" I've got a new dealer coming on board in Canada soon"

Who is it gonna be? When is it going to happen?

A boutique shop/store with sofa in their name, it escapes me for the moment. They'll be in Calgary, IIRC. And there's another store in Saskatoon, Village Guitar, I believe. Talk to Dan Canfield.

Listening to the clips of the Scumback H75 compared to a real pre-rola G12H30 it has a bit more high end and a little less lower mids in my opinion, but i'm not sure, it's impossible to compare speakers by listening to clips on the internet through the speakers of my macbook... Did you ever compared a Scumback H75 to the real pre rola G12H? What are the differences in your opinion?

dav_z84 wrote:Listening to the clips of the Scumback H75 compared to a real pre-rola G12H30 it has a bit more high end and a little less lower mids in my opinion, but i'm not sure, it's impossible to compare speakers by listening to clips on the internet through the speakers of my macbook... Did you ever compared a Scumback H75 to the real pre rola G12H? What are the differences in your opinion?

First let me address a few points to consider on comparisons, and then the speakers themselves.

1) If you listen to clips on the net, take them with a grain of salt. Various production processes, mics, mic placement, etc all contribute to what you hear...not to mention the clips get compressed to play on the net.
2) Computer speakers...I never, ever listen to any sound clips on a laptop, Ipad, Iphone, etc. The minimum I listen to is a decent 40w or higher computer speaker setup with a subwoofer (with a bass level control), and two good satellite speakers (2.5" or larger). I've been using the same Altec Lansing 45w system for 15 years that meets the specs above. Anything less than that is a compromise and you're not going to get the full audio effect.

The H75 is a very close tonal approximation of the G12H30 T1217 75 hz Pulsonic lead cone. Without a really decent break in at high volume for 40 hours or more (high volume = 30w or more, loud enough to be heard over a drummer hitting the skins medium hard), they aren't going to sound very close. If you get an H75 w/FBI, it's going to sound a lot closer, but you'll still get another 5-10% more break in by playing them loud with a cranked amp. This is due to forcing the speaker to handle a signal which will move the cone as far as possible, something a variac will not due with a 60 cycle hum. While it does break in the speaker nicely, takes the edge off the treble and fills out the lower mids and low end, nothing fully replaces a high volume thrashing with your amp.

The differences between a well broken in H75 and a pre rola G12H30 75 hz T1217 w/Pulsonic cone are very small. Many players have said they can't hear any difference, I can still hear a tiny bit. There's no way to replace completely the effect of 40 years of paper aging and the resulting tone.

If anyone has the money to go spend $400-500 per speaker on known/good/holy grail pre rolas (not just any you find are), go do it. I did back when they were $100-350 each. I bought over 400 of them. I selected the best of my pile, they became the tone targets for the Scumback models I offer today.

I'm not going to claim Scumbacks sound like any pre rola Celestion you'll find. They don't. They sound like the best of the over 400 I bought over several years. There were such wide variations in tone, condition, response and output of the old Celestions that there was never a "standard". Worse yet, after 40 plus years, you have to take into consideration how they were played, handled, abused/or not, weather, storage, moisture, etc, etc.

So the bottom line is simple...if you have the money to go spend anywhere from $1200 - 1800 USD on original pre rola G12M/G12H30's...GO DO IT! But don't be surprised if you get some with cone cry, voice coil rub, weird or vibrational noises, etc.

For example: I had a player bring by an old pre rola recently. He wanted to trade it for some Scumbacks plus cash. He brought it over, I tested it. It had cone cry in four places from 2khz to 2500, 2800 - 3000, 3200-3400 and around 4khz up.

I then pulled out a brand new H75 and tested it. It didn't have cone cry in four places. The guy wanting to do the trade was floored. He thought he had a nice speaker to trade me. When I told him I wasn't interested, he asked me what I'd give him for it. I took him out to see my pile of roughly 26 pre rolas in boxes and said "I'm still looking for old 60's Marshall cabs for all of these. So I really don't need your speaker, sorry."

I hope that answers your questions. If not email or call me to discuss it further.

out of interest how do you test for cone cry on a speaker? using a sound wave generator? sounds like you have some cool gadgets there jim.