G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

This is what it sounds like, when cones cry.

Moderators: VelvetGeorge, BUG

louis
Senior Member
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 9:41 pm
Just the numbers in order: 7

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by louis » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:20 pm

I am too ,very surprised about the reissues,

They sound good!



Louis

User avatar
rgorke
Senior Member
Posts: 4509
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2008 11:37 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Drought Ravaged SoCal

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by rgorke » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:21 pm

Do we have a definitive answer that the GB reissues are the current run, Chinese made speakes? In other words, if one were to buy a new "greenback" now from Celestion, this is the speaker?

Or are they the reissues from the '90s with the 6402 cones?
"If you make a mistake, do it twice and smile and let people think you meant it." Jan Van Halen.

User avatar
Tone Slinger
Senior Member
Posts: 6520
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 10:31 am

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by Tone Slinger » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:07 pm

The reissue's seemed brighter to me or something. Not quite right. I never considered anything other than a 25 watter is a 25 watter and thats what EVH, Scorpions, Michael Schenker, etc, etc use. I got a new 4/12 Marshall slant in '90. It had the reissue 25 watters in it. It blew away the other speakers in the other cabs there (I believe I tried vintage 30's, 75's, EV's loaded in the 'compact' looking Mesa Boogie's of the day,etc). Loved that cab, but sold it mid 90's :o . Jump ahead 10 yrs and through Ralle and then Rockstah I figured out that the 6402 coned 25 watters they both used were what were in my cab, and thier clips confirmed what I liked,tonewise, about my old cab. Throw in efrasers awesome sounding clips (6402's) and it becomes pretty obvious that the first English reissue 25 watters (6402 cones) are pretty darn good. I snagged a beat up mid '80's Marshall slant that is loaded with them. That cab originally had the 65 watters in it.
Rip Ben Wise (StuntDouble) & Mark Abrahamian (Rockstah)

User avatar
Scumback Speakers
Supporting Advertiser
Posts: 4515
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by Scumback Speakers » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:23 pm

I'm going to say something not many want to hear, so get ready.

George did another test clip with the ASW speakers vs the 67 G12M's he had in his cab a month or so back. He was thrilled with how they sounded, even wrote me about it. I thought they sounded a whole bunch better in that clip.

But that sure didn't seem to translate here in this recording, based on the comments I've read, and what I heard in the clip (not criticizing ASW, Celestion, George, Rick, Metro members, etc...read on).

My feeling is that something went wrong with the recording. Sorry, George! I love you, buddy, but this one didn't come off like it should.

I say that because I've heard the ASW Crossroads in person, and they just don't sound like they do in this clip. IMO, something is off...I'm not going to venture to say what, since I wasn't there.

But it's definitely off because the tone I hear in the ASW Crossroads is way off from the ones I've heard in person.

And if they're off, I'm afraid that casts doubt on the rest of the recording as well.

I'm sure many will disagree, but frankly I think I'm right. Why? Well, if I did think the recording was right, would I be sticking up for ASW speakers?

Probably not.

I'll go put my flame suit on now, I'm sure I'll need it!
Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone
sales@scumbackspeakers.com
http://www.scumbackspeakers.com
310-833-6632

User avatar
axeman
Senior Member
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:21 pm
Just the numbers in order: 7
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by axeman » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:45 pm

Thanks George, I'm getting the long awaited G12m Heritage speakers.

User avatar
axeman
Senior Member
Posts: 2464
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:21 pm
Just the numbers in order: 7
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by axeman » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:55 pm

BTW would I have a problem with using 15 ohms speakers ? and set at 16 ohms on the amp? Naive question . :palm:

User avatar
VelvetGeorge
Site Owner
Posts: 7233
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:12 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: The Murder Mitten
Contact:

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by VelvetGeorge » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:38 pm

I hear you Jim, but can assure you there was nothing "wrong" in the recording process. I've struggled with why they didn't translate as well myself. My thought is that different mic position would have suited them better. Granted, the ASW are subdued in the highs vs every other speaker in the shootout, but in person they are far more appealing than the clips would lead you to believe.

I'll offer the other clip you mentioned as evidence:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR7Rn9erHew[/youtube]

Ironically, in that clip many people preferred the ASW and/or mistook them to be the vintage speakers. I regret that I may have unintentionally done a disservice to ASW with these clips. That definitely was not my intention. If anything, I am excited to spread the word about how great they sound. Good, bad or otherwise I was committed to the test as precise and apples to apples, so I don't regret sticking to it. I guess you can take away from this that even this micing scheme isn't ideal for all speakers.

george
Check out Plexi Replicas for my personal amp builds...
Image

User avatar
Scumback Speakers
Supporting Advertiser
Posts: 4515
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by Scumback Speakers » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:50 pm

George, no offense intended to you or your setup, I hope you didn't take any. But what I heard in your clip led me to believe that each speaker has it's "sweet spot" for micing, and it's likely that one mic placement probably doesn't do justice to all of the speakers evenly.

With the recent 535 clip barrage I've got going to my site soon, I found this out firsthand as well.
Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone
sales@scumbackspeakers.com
http://www.scumbackspeakers.com
310-833-6632

User avatar
VelvetGeorge
Site Owner
Posts: 7233
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 5:12 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: The Murder Mitten
Contact:

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by VelvetGeorge » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:05 pm

Not at all Jim. Like I said, I struggled with this too.

I really think context is playing with our heads here, all of the other speakers are clearly brighter. Relative volume also plays a role in our perception, so I'll throw this out there:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64682773/M%20s ... justed.wav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the '67 first, then the ASW, also repeated same order. But, I adjusted the RMS level of the Crossroads clips to match the '67s. All I have done is raise the level by 1db. See if that changes anything.

george
Check out Plexi Replicas for my personal amp builds...
Image

User avatar
JimiJames
Senior Member
Posts: 3550
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 6:32 pm
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by JimiJames » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:12 pm

Scumback Speakers wrote:George, no offense intended to you or your setup, I hope you didn't take any. But what I heard in your clip led me to believe that each speaker has it's "sweet spot" for micing, and it's likely that one mic placement probably doesn't do justice to all of the speakers evenly.

With the recent 535 clip barrage I've got going to my site soon, I found this out firsthand as well.
I'm not sure what is being said here ? I see one mic in the vid-pic ? Isn't that even-steven ?
Wouldn't they sound even different with both cabs on the floor, then. Is it in this concept in which you're saying this?
Consistency with one mic up close up; than the pressure zones of different sized rooms ?

shakti
Senior Member
Posts: 2053
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 9:06 am
Just the numbers in order: 7
Location: Ramnes, Norway

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by shakti » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:17 pm

Is there a chance that one of the ASW speakers was wired out of phase? I would have thought you would notice first-hand, but OTOH that nasally quality is something that may result from a speaker being out of phase.
JTM45 RS OT, 1973 18W, JTM45/100, JTM50, JMP50 1986, JMP100 "West Coast", AC15, AC30, BF Super Reverb, Boogie Mk 1, Hiwatt CP103, DR103

User avatar
BaronGreenback
Senior Member
Posts: 212
Joined: Sat May 08, 2010 8:34 am
Just the numbers in order: 7

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by BaronGreenback » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:04 am

jim is beating about the bush here but i think he is just rattled because his scumback speakers didnt come out on top.

i for one am glad of shootout videos like these. done by an honest third party and not made by scumback speakers, celestion, or anyone other speaker company featured in it. lets face it, their main agenda would be to make their own speakers sound best in any comparison clips or videos.

these videos will always come out differently depending on the setup and mic position etc, so many variables. i dont own any ASW or scumbacks, but the pre-rola sounds very familiar to my ears, and in my opinion this recording is a decent representation of it.

User avatar
Scumback Speakers
Supporting Advertiser
Posts: 4515
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:27 am
Just the numbers in order: 13492
Location: Prescott, AZ
Contact:

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by Scumback Speakers » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:29 am

jimi james: What I meant was that not every speaker has it's sweet spot for micing in the exact same place. And with mics four feet away the margin for error is much smaller than if you close mic next to the grill cloth.

You could move a mic 1/2" and get a different tone from a speaker. When James Lugo did his pickup shootout years ago, he was careful to test recordings in several positions with the mic, and choose the best one from multiple angles. Then he marked (taped the cloth) the cab and made note of the angle of the mic as well. This is what I did 8 years ago in my recordings, and I learned this same lesson from Andy Zuckerman who did the recordings.

I truly don't think the ASW speakers got recorded right for sure, which is why I brought this up. I've heard them in person and they don't sound like they do in this clip. Hence, due to this being not right for the ASW, it raises the question of if the mic position was the best for all of the speakers.
Scumback Speakers - Kick Ass Vintage Tone
sales@scumbackspeakers.com
http://www.scumbackspeakers.com
310-833-6632

jape88
Senior Member
Posts: 712
Joined: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:55 am
Just the numbers in order: 7
Location: England

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by jape88 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:57 am

Maybe I misunderstood what George's aim was here, but I thought this was to capture how each quad of speakers sounded 'IN THE ROOM' in that cab with that amp?
ALL speakers have their sweet spot and mike type when getting the best to tape, but using a quality ribbon mike was the nearest and fairest I'd say without going o.t.t. with a full studio set up? Maybe shootouts aren't the best way the evaluate a speaker?

Tazin
Senior Member
Posts: 793
Joined: Fri Jan 19, 2007 8:54 pm

Re: G12M speaker shootout video. Celestion, Scumback, ASW

Post by Tazin » Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:05 am

VelvetGeorge wrote:Not at all Jim. Like I said, I struggled with this too.

I really think context is playing with our heads here, all of the other speakers are clearly brighter. Relative volume also plays a role in our perception, so I'll throw this out there:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/64682773/M%20s ... justed.wav" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the '67 first, then the ASW, also repeated same order. But, I adjusted the RMS level of the Crossroads clips to match the '67s. All I have done is raise the level by 1db. See if that changes anything.

george
I have to admit the ASW's sound much better in this short clip.

Post Reply