My JTM45 -- Sozo vs. NOS Mustards -- Listen and Decide.

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:58 pm

No levels were changed ANYWHERE in the chain in between recordings.

NOTHING WAS TOUCHED.

The reason you're perceiving it as louder is a midrange change that's DRASTIC between the two. Don't be fooled.

PS: Normalizing is a dirty word.

Ricky Lee · Post by **Ricky Lee** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:37 pm

The Mustards are averaging $50.00 a cap on Ebay, I didn't hear a $50.00 a cap difference between the Sozo's and Mustards and I doubt that the audience would sonically hear a difference either. The subtle difference that I'm hearing is the Sozo's sounds slightly more compressed but slightly clearer than the Mustard. I think the Sozo premiums would be a better comparison as far as which cap has more bang for the buck. If we're just comparing caps here then we're back to sound is subjective. Good illustration though.

6string · Post by **6string** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:39 pm

You surely did not intentionally change anything, and I don't believe Billy or myself are implying that, but the levels are different, and it's not merely the midrange. Day to day, hour to hour, electronics vary, especially if you turn your gear off when you are not using it. That's why studios never turn any of their gear off unless it's absolutely necessary to do so for service.

When the levels are more closely matched, the difference is still there, just not so pronounced.

I am thrilled that you've taken the time to do this and share it with everyone, and I'm really looking forward to the premium/NOS comparison.

Do you have a variac?

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:32 pm

By normalize I mean making all tracks even and as loud as possible. I dont mean with some plugin or piece of gear- I just go by my mixers meter and match them.

I know you didnt change anything but something was different. The amount by my meter was a very significant amount. Heres an example. Ive noticed attenuators from one session to the next will seem to be louder or quieter by a significant amount themselves. I couldnt say why exactly but when I recorded the Hotel California Solos in my sound clips I had to go back and balance the tracks I recorded because for some reason, without changing a single setting the second set of recordings I did were way louder. Maybe iuts the reason 6string mentioned? I dont know but I sure as hell didnt touch anything.

Like 6string said I think we all appreciate the great work. You just have to be careful not to scew the results. Even if your comparing 2 amps, one 10W and one 100W, you still need to match the levels because people will always perceive frequencies differently at different levels and its not a subtle effect but a very real and extreme one. The way I heard the difference in your clips at first, and the way I heard them when they were balanced was very different. But I knew that was going to be the case- thats why I matched and relistened to them.

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:32 pm

Hi guys, thanks for the notes. The goal wasn't lab-level results on this, or I'd have recorded the first cuts moments before swapping the mustards. And I suppose it's definitely possible gear anomalies could be to blame for slight level shifts, I've certainly seen stranger things. I know for a fact even that my tube amps just sound better on some days than others. That's both curious and annoying. But I know it's real.

Regarding the $50 price for the .022 caps, I used .018 in this after being told, as I've mentioned, that a difference is not sonically perceivable between the two values. The .018s are also only $4 each. That's cheaper than a sozo premium .022!

I have however found .022s that are on their way to me for my 12 series, and I didn't pay anywhere near $50 each for them. A little more than half of that. Granted that's still spendy, but I'm trying to max out my amp's potential not save a hundred bucks in this case. The 12 series is George built, and I always said the only thing I'd ever change in that is mustards. I PRAY the mustards don't change it THAT much because I don't want to ever buy a whole set of those again if I can possibly get premiums for much less instead on the next amp I dig into.

I think you get what you pay for though. And until I've compared the premiums with mustards in my 12 series and have different results than I had here, I'm now a believer that the mustard myth is not hype. Too expensive for words? Yes. But then again, the price of these is nothing compared to good, NOS sought-after tubes.

Ricky Lee · Post by **Ricky Lee** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:47 pm

I have a fresh built 12xxx with the premium Sozo's in it and they are night/day over the regular Sozo's which I have used in other builds.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:24 pm

I did use .018s for my JTM45100 board. In the stack and in the coupler positions your talking a slight loss of low end, if I could even notice the difference, probably wouldnt be unwelcome anyway. I mean the bass on that amp will be on 0 most of the time anyway. So other then the slightly higher slope for the V1 coupler (which isnt unwelcome either) I think theyll work fine in any marshall.

If you ask John he does have specific reasons how and why mustards make a difference.

5150loveeddie · Post by **5150loveeddie** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 10:55 pm

Dan did you say the Sozo's sounded clearer???

Maybe I'm confused on using proper words here!!?

Froumy · Post by **Froumy** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:37 am

Awesome test! Thanks. Mustards definitely better. Sozo's are still damn good.

I think you've raised your cutoff of frequency by about 10Hz. Shouldn't be noticeable, but who knows? I swapped at .002(800Hz) for a .02(80Hz)in a high gain design and it was absolutely horrible. Farty weak bass, no mids...

I can't help but wonder why there was less "rumble", more defined mids, and a higher volume with the mustards....Here's a half-baked wild guess.

A higher "ESR" or "L"(besides noise) can CUT down the audio signal. Could that be why the Sozo's sounded quieter? Possibly, but I'm thinking it's something else...

A cap with poor "Insulation Resistance", besides noise, can DAMPEN low frequency signals. That could account for the lack of "rumble" with the Mustards. Without wasted power amplifying the super lows, the amp could be more focused in the guitars range, where it's supposed to be. Maybe acting like a slight mid boost...Louder volume.

If that last one was right, I can't help but wondering why lowering the bypass cap(and so on) wouldn't produce similiar results with the Sozo's....

Just guessing gent's. Hopefully someone in the know will fill me in.....

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 6:58 am

5150loveeddie wrote:Dan did you say the Sozo's sounded clearer??? Maybe I'm confused on using proper words here!!?

Yeah maybe not clearer exactly. That makes it sound better and I certainly prefer the mustards. It sounds like more of a V to me put it that way.

5150loveeddie · Post by **5150loveeddie** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:03 am

Billy Batz wrote:
5150loveeddie wrote:Dan did you say the Sozo's sounded clearer??? Maybe I'm confused on using proper words here!!?
Yeah maybe not clearer exactly. That makes it sound better and I certainly prefer the mustards. It sounds like more of a V to me put it that way.

More definiton, or detailed...maybe?

Yeah a V....

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 2:58 pm

if by "v" you mean a smiley face EQ curve kind of sound, that's exactly how I felt about the sozo standards vs. mustards. By comparison, it makes the sozos have sort of a POD-emulation-of-a-plexi kind of thing when compared.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:52 pm

Yeah exactly. The smiley curve. Especially in the low end. Like an Elvis sniker with one side really high lol.

POD simulation. Thats almost too cruel. Theyre not bad at all with whatrs out there. Put it in perspective. Those clips are very close in the grand scheme of things but people like us here the devil is in the details. Id love to hear one of these for vintage sozos.

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 9:13 pm

Billy Batz wrote:Yeah exactly. The smiley curve. Especially in the low end. Like an Elvis sniker with one side really high lol.

POD simulation. Thats almost too cruel. Theyre not bad at all with whatrs out there. Put it in perspective. Those clips are very close in the grand scheme of things but people like us here the devil is in the details. Id love to hear one of these for vintage sozos.

I know that's cruel. But you know what I mean... where it's kinda ALMOST there but something is off enough to know it's not right.

You're ALMOST in luck on the vintage sozos tip. I've officially ordered ALL the mustards I need for my 12 series, so I'll have ALMOST what I need to do the JTM in premiums and do recordings with that as well. Here's the deal though, to pull that off, I need 2 more .1/400v premiums than I'll have, so if anyone has 2 of those they'd donate for the test, I'd gladly send them back to you after I've put them in and recorded it. Otherwise I'm not hugely inclined to buy yet more caps, especially since I won't be keeping them in.

Would be great to complete the test with all 3 in the same amp. I haven't seen such a test anywhere yet. If it's been done, save me the effort and post a link...

PS: Funny, I ALWAYS say to people that the GOD is in the details, when they tell me I'm too anal. lol One of my favorite sayings. Not anal, the first part.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:40 pm

Multi cap tests like that have been done before at older 1st gen amp building sites that have burnt out. That was either before sozo or before the name was out there. Favorites at that time were solens and mallorys