My JTM45 -- Sozo vs. NOS Mustards -- Listen and Decide.

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:36 pm

Froumy wrote:Awesome test! Thanks. Mustards definitely better. Sozo's are still damn good.

I think you've raised your cutoff of frequency by about 10Hz. Shouldn't be noticeable, but who knows? I swapped at .002(800Hz) for a .02(80Hz)in a high gain design and it was absolutely horrible. Farty weak bass, no mids...

I can't help but wonder why there was less "rumble", more defined mids, and a higher volume with the mustards....Here's a half-baked wild guess.

A higher "ESR" or "L"(besides noise) can CUT down the audio signal. Could that be why the Sozo's sounded quieter? Possibly, but I'm thinking it's something else...

A cap with poor "Insulation Resistance", besides noise, can DAMPEN low frequency signals. That could account for the lack of "rumble" with the Mustards. Without wasted power amplifying the super lows, the amp could be more focused in the guitars range, where it's supposed to be. Maybe acting like a slight mid boost...Louder volume.

If that last one was right, I can't help but wondering why lowering the bypass cap(and so on) wouldn't produce similiar results with the Sozo's....

Just guessing gent's. Hopefully someone in the know will fill me in.....

In the room, not on mic, I don't really even perceive the low end change, other than it's more accurate down there now in les paul neck position on low notes. It's not a mess, there's better clarity down there, more harmonically complex, less mud.

I don't know about raising the cutoff freq by 10k, but what I can tell you about the top end, especially in the room with it, is that it's more pleasant and less piercing with the strat, which is always the challenge. The top end is just more musical.

What happened with the midrange is my favorite thing about the change. It's so open and pronounced and, someone said it, it centers right where the guitar is supposed to be, thinking mix wise. It's big without demolishing the spectrum around it being too wide. That's how those AC/DC tones sat so high in the mix without stomping on everything else. The mids sing now when you solo. It's heavenly to play through.

NY Chief · Post by **NY Chief** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:42 am

Billy Batz wrote:when I recorded the Hotel California Solos .

Damn, Danny!!! You NAILED that solo, double track and all. Fukin GREAT JOB!

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:02 pm

Thanks Chief. That ones too fun not to learn.

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:58 am

UPDATE:

I've gone into Logic and balanced levels so they are both sitting at the same nominal level. The playing field has been leveled.

You can go back and click the links again if you've already heard them. I replaced the files.

5150loveeddie · Post by **5150loveeddie** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:19 pm

mushmouth wrote:UPDATE:

I've gone into Logic and balanced levels so they are both sitting at the same nominal level. The playing field has been leveled.

You can go back and click the links again if you've already heard them. I replaced the files.

Nice work dude. Have qts, how old are the Sozo?? HAve a friend who installed the premium and they sound nice then went downhill after 10hr to go back uphill again, yoyo stuff, they really need a huge break-in I guess. Mustard not so really....

For that test we would need each caps to be at there maximum, all breaked in and all. My friend amp I did 4 years ago as Mallory in it and it is killer. Not like the Mustard but very very nice, wonder if they are better then the sozo themseft those Mallory...?

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:30 pm

The sozos had about 50 hours of break-in on them.

Edit to add: ALL the mustards arrived for my 12 series today. I'm going to order a variable temp solder station before I do that. The temp I'm getting out of my regular cheapo weller wand isn't right. I'm starting to get dull solder points. When that arrives, I'll be able to put mustards in my 12 series for that test. However, still need two more .1 premium sozos to do the premium test in the JTM.

SoZo · Post by **SoZo** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:06 am

Ricky Lee · Post by **Ricky Lee** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:27 am

I guess if Marshall could have got away with using 0.18 they'd be in some of the amps, but apparently the reason he used the 0.22 is clearly shown on the graph. Good information John.

Flames1950 · Post by **Flames1950** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:30 am

Ricky Lee wrote:I guess if Marshall could have got away with using 0.18 they'd be in some of the amps, but apparently the reason he used the 0.22 is clearly shown on the graph. Good information John.

Oh please.....Marshall used the values that the 5F6-A Bassman used because that's what the JTM45 was copied from. There's no great thought process involved there..........

Ricky Lee · Post by **Ricky Lee** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:37 am

In any case somebody thought it better to use the 0.22 values.

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:02 am

[quote="SoZo"]I

Flames1950 · Post by **Flames1950** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:10 am

You look at that comparative wave and you think the eq is "totally different"? And you think that curve shows it rolling off "all the bass"?

While the EQ curves may be very similar, look closer at what has gone on........in the low frequencies you've rolled off around 1.5-2dB of some frequencies. Remember, the volume difference between a 50- and a 100-watt is 3dB for a comparison point, so while dcecibels are logarithmic and 3dB is much bigger at full bore on an amplifier, you have made the equivalent of a few watts less of power to these frequencies. And this first area of the graph only shows a range of 90Hz.

The second area where the lower mids shift represents 900Hz in the same space that the first 90Hz was shown. So the range of frequences affected here is quite large. Again, you've bumped the volume in many of these low mid frequencies by 1.5-2dB, like now adding a few watts of power to these frequencies.

The Duncan Tone Stack Calculator is of course only theoretical, and doesn't represent the whole of the amp. I'm pretty sure I recall Larry saying he would definitely not sub the .018's in some areas of the amp if the original voicing was what you wanted to maintain though.

If you like the change to the amp that's wonderful, you may have found your personal recipe to tailor the response to what you want to hear in your head. But the comparison in your 12XXX using identical values would be a much fairer shootout.

Froumy · Post by **Froumy** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:41 pm

OK. We have an explanation for the volume increase and mid bump. I think it's also important to note that cutoff frequency of the coupling caps has also gone slightly up, and might be contributing to the overall effect.

I should be getting my mustards in a week or so. I for one, am going to swap one section at a time. First the .1's, then the tone stack, then the couplers. I recommend any one else swapping for mustards do the same, and report back. It might be nice to pinpoint if it's just the tone stack value that caused this profound change.....

As far as SOZO offering 2 different lines. I have absolutely no problem with it. Doesn't every modern company offer a budget model, and a premium model for those willing to pay the extra? I do admit, that it would be nice to hear a taste test from SOZO, so that all customers remain happy for the life of the purchase....With no remorse. Also, I definitely preferred the .018's. Those mustards aren't going to last forever. SOZO, if you offered up .018's, I'm guessing there may be more than just a couple guys that would take you up on it....

908ssp · Post by **908ssp** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:06 pm

I just listened to all the clips again after the volume change and they are indeed much closer. So close in fact that in a couple clips I liked the Sozo's better and a couple I liked the Mustards better. I probably won't be buying any Mustards for any more clones not at the current prices. Too bad we can't get people to just put the mustards away for repairing the old amps. Just not worth using up some limited resource like this.

Froumy · Post by **Froumy** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:27 pm

908ssp wrote:I just listened to all the clips again after the volume change and they are indeed much closer. So close in fact that in a couple clips I liked the Sozo's better and a couple I liked the Mustards better. I probably won't be buying any Mustards for any more clones not at the current prices. Too bad we can't get people to just put the mustards away for repairing the old amps. Just not worth using up some limited resource like this.

If I don't hear a difference with the .1's I'll probably put them away for that reason. The .018's aren't stock value anyway, much easier to leave them in...