My JTM45 -- Sozo vs. NOS Mustards -- Listen and Decide.

Ricky Lee · Post by **Ricky Lee** » Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:39 pm

About like comparing a GMC and Chevrolet truck. One minute we like one and then the other, they're that close.

SoZo · Post by **SoZo** » Thu May 15, 2008 4:03 pm

This should not be a sticky...

If the values were .022 mustards vs .022 SoZo's the title would be correct and it could be a sticky... Not being a whiner.. but as this thread stands, it is false and misleading IMHO.

6string · Post by **6string** » Thu May 15, 2008 11:29 pm

I have to agree 100%.

toner · Post by **toner** » Sun May 18, 2008 1:01 am

First of all, thanks to mushmouth for the clips!

Even if the cap values are not identical, I have to say that I prefer the overall tone and clarity of the mustard clips.

Long before hearing these clips I replaced most of my sozo standard signal caps with NOS mustards and noticed an improvement immediately. I was very skeptical about the mustard hype until I heard them first hand in my amp.

I had a similar experience: the sozo's were well broken in and the mustards were "new". I also used some "in between" values (.018, .039, etc.) so it's not a totally fair comparison but there's a lot more going on with caps than just frequency response. If it were simply about the relative gain levels at certain frequencies, a graphic (or even better, parametric) EQ could make one amp sound like another.

I got the mustards for free so it wasn't a matter of wanting to like them to justify a purchase. I'm also not one who thinks vintage is always better. I like what sounds best to me, regardless of what's historically accurate.

However, mustards just sound more "musical" to me, especially in the mid frequencies. They are clearer and less smeared sounding. The tone just sits better in the mix, if you know what I mean.

I'm not bashing sozo's. They are great caps and serve their purpose in the market. I haven't tried the premium versions.

Roe · Post by **Roe** » Sun May 18, 2008 6:29 am

clips of old mustards and sozo premiums (same values

) would be great. I'm still finding some olds mustards cheap in norway.

Masa · Post by **Masa** » Sun May 18, 2008 2:16 pm

Did you actually check the values of those caps? .018 could be close to .02, and .022 could also be .02. If that's the case, it should be fair comparison. If they're more like .016 vs .024, that could be a different story.

Most Sozo caps I've checked are pretty right on. Mustard could be a little off, but usually still within the spec (+- 10%).

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun May 18, 2008 3:17 pm

If you want to get forensic about it even using the same value caps isnt a totally fair comparison. At 20% tolerance 2 sets of .022u caps can be very far off. One could potentially be .017u and another .026u. Potentially. At 10% they could be from .02 to .024. Arent mustards 20%?

Masa · Post by **Masa** » Sun May 18, 2008 3:30 pm

Billy Batz wrote:If you want to get forensic about it even using the same value caps isnt a totally fair comparison. At 20% tolerance 2 sets of .022u caps can be very far off. One could potentially be .017u and another .026u. Potentially. At 10% they could be from .02 to .024. Arent mustards 20%?

That's what I was saying, basically. We've been talking about .018 Mustard vs .022 Sozo. Are they really .018 and .022? Without knowing the actual values, it's kind of pointless to say "they sound different, because they have different values."

BTW, Mustards are 10%.

Billy Batz · Post by **Billy Batz** » Sun May 18, 2008 3:42 pm

Your right I just looked at them. +/-10%. Still enough to effect things tho I do think the overall conclusion in those clips are in the general area of the real difference. The + caps have a decent amount more low end which I know aat least 2 people who prefer them to the vintage line just for that reason.

SoZo · Post by **SoZo** » Thu May 22, 2008 5:30 pm

my caps are 5% or less FYI....

mushmouth · Post by **mushmouth** » Tue May 27, 2008 4:29 pm

Be careful what you wish for.

I've re-capped my 12 series that George built with NOS mustards, replacing the Sozo premiums in there, and in that head I used the exact value of mustards. I'll have before and after clips posted soon, but the spoiler is this: In this case, the Sozo's fared even worse than they did in this comparison here.

Oh, and by the way, I did measure the .018 NOS mustards that went into the JTM45 here before installing them and they all measured between .020 and .021.

So, ummmmmm, there you go. lol

I can certainly see why you wouldn't want this thread stickied though.

frenchie · Post by **frenchie** » Wed May 28, 2008 11:36 am

did you mesure the right 0.022uf you recaped your 12s with within the range ? just to know .....i'm curious

Ricky Lee · Post by **Ricky Lee** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:03 pm

mushmouth wrote:Be careful what you wish for.

the spoiler is this: In this case, the Sozo's fared even worse than they did in this comparison here.

I can certainly see why you wouldn't want this thread stickied though.

Are you saying the Sozo Premiums (in your latest comparison) sounded worse than the regular Sozo's? I feel a comparison between Sozo regulars and premiums brewing here if that be the case.

6string · Post by **6string** » Wed May 28, 2008 2:16 pm

Ricky Lee wrote:
mushmouth wrote:Be careful what you wish for.

the spoiler is this: In this case, the Sozo's fared even worse than they did in this comparison here.

I can certainly see why you wouldn't want this thread stickied though.

Are you saying the Sozo Premiums (in your latest comparison) sounded worse than the regular Sozo's? I feel a comparison between Sozo regulars and premiums brewing here if that be the case.

Hard to believe... considering the fact that I just did did a comparison between the Sozo Premiums and NOS mustards. There is a thread about it here:

http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=19186

I felt they were so close that I have set up a blind listening test.

Seems to me from reading his comments that mushmouth has it out for John.

Froumy · Post by **Froumy** » Wed May 28, 2008 4:50 pm

Hate to ask.... Are the Premiums broken in yet? 6 string just posted a similiar thread without the .1's. Good luck telling the difference....

Can't wait to hear the clips! and if you kept the results secret for a while, that'd be cool, too. Although you may have already given it away....