What was wrong with the JTM45 tested by Gitarre & Bass?

[johan]

Larry is one of the moderators here -
http://forum.metroamp.com/memberlist.ph ... file&u=571" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.larry-amplification.de/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[MacGaden]

Bilstets:

"Larry" is Larry Grohmann, username Novosibir on this board is one of the finest ampbuilders in the world, http://www.larry-amplification.de/, and one of the nicest, and one of the most knowledgeable guys on the board. He´s the "Lar" in the LarMar master: He invented it, Mark/Rockstah built and tested it. Like Yoda of amps he is..

He built the amp in the test. Here´s one of his other amps, the British Purist:

http://www.larry-amplification.de/galle ... nside2.jpg

Does´nt really look like a paint by number guy like Pipper claims about the Metro JTM45 he built...

There was nothing standard about that build either:

http://www.larry-amplification.de/JTM45_CM/100_2055.jpg

Parts-list:

-------

- RS DeLuxe Clone Übertrager
- zwei Alu-Distanzrahmen für Übertrager (Sonderanfertigung)
- vier längere Schrauben mit Zollgewinde zur Kappenmontage mit Rähmchen
- 12 zusätzliche Turrets für das Board
- 5 St. SoZo Vintage .022
- 3 St. SoZo Vintage .1
- einen NOS Philips 220µF/16V Kathodenelko für V1
- 7 St. Larry 'Cremerlinge' Keramikkondensatoren div. Werte
- 4 St. NOS Allen Bradley Carbon Composition 1 Watt Widerstände
- 2 St. Welwyn 430 Ohm/4Watt Schirmgitter-Widerstände
- ein zusätzlicher Elko 16µF/475V für V1 alleine (TAD)
- 2 St. NOS Hunts 32+32/450V Elektrolytkondensatoren
- 3 St. Beyschlag 1 Watt Metallfilm-Widerstände
- einen Cornell Dubilier 170 Polypropylen-Kondensator .1/160V (für Presence-Regler)
- einen DPDT-Umschalter mit 1000V Spannungsfestigkeit als Primärimpedanz-Umschalter
- zwei orig. UK made ARROW Knebelschalter zweipolig (Netz & Standby)
- Pilot Light amber, rund, 65'th Style
- Spannungswahlschalter (anstatt Impedanzwahlschalter) an Amp-Rückseite
- Schurter IEC-Netzeinbaustecker mit integriertem HF-Filter
- eine NOS Mullard GZ34 Gleichrichterröhre
- 3 St. NOS B9A Röhrenfassung nach MIL-Specs (aus 1962-er US-Armeebeständen)
- eine NOS Mullard ECC83 Vorstufenröhre (V1)
- zwei NOS Brimar ECC83 Vorstufenröhren (V2 & V3)
- ein matched Duett Shuguang KT66 Endstufenröhren
-----

Not really paint-by numbers as Pipper claims...

He´s an OK guitarplayer, but his credibility as a reviewer is compromised by this. He seems to have his own agenda.

[billstets]

interesting, thanks.

So Udo did so say those things in Gitarre & Bass then? That really sucks.

[MacGaden]

interesting, thanks.

So Udo did so say those things in Gitarre & Bass then? That really sucks.

Do you read German ? I don´t have time to translate..

[billstets]

interesting, thanks.

So Udo did so say those things in Gitarre & Bass then? That really sucks.

Do you read German ? I don´t have time to translate..

Yes pretty well, but I usually have to look up a few words here and there, and pretty much all technical terms, like the component list in your post above. All four of my grandparents emigrated from southern Germany to the New York in the 1920s, and German was my parents first language, so I've been around it my whole life.

Do you have en electronic copy?

[billstets]

Ok, so I've now read the article too, although on my copy (pdf), I have a hard time making out the right side of the righthand column of the first page. It seems strange to me. Basically Udo got a standard Metro kit with premium Sozos, and he did say all the negative things that were quoted at the beginning of this thread. He never said "it sounded good, just not like an original..." Basically by changing to the Marstran transformers, NOS mustard caps, and AB resistors, it sounded great to him. There were other things, but these were the main complaints.

I'm no expert on JTM45s and have never heard an original. Since this thread started, I have done some web research and here's my take and some lingering questions:

1. It seems that the PT voltages varied in the originals. George chose the lower voltages, because he liked the sound. Germino offers the lower voltage on his 45 clone, though I can’t figure out if that’s an option at this point, or if it’s just what he’s doing on all of those amps. My B+ is about 370 (I measured at the standby switch). From my research, I think higher voltage would deliver more headroom, tighter bass and maybe more brightness. Ok, but I don't think that makes the lower voltage PT sound bad, the way Udo describes it.

2. OT: As I understand it, the Metro Drake type is just as authentic as the Marstran RS type, but they do sound different. But how different do they sound and in what way? I don't know. I’m curious if anyone could describe it.

3. NOS mustards. Someone just resurrected that thread on Sozo v.s mustards from 2008. I recall that thread, and had a hard time hearing significant differences in the clips. I changed my standard Sozos to the premium at that time, and I can’t remember clearly, but I don’t think I even heard a big change when I put the premiums in my build. I think this is a very subtle difference and just can’t result in a bad sounding amp.

4. AB resistors. I have a set at home, but haven’t put them in yet. As far as I can tell this is probably even more subtle than the mustards.

I am still curious about the Marstran trannies, and what and RS type OT and more B+ would do to my build. Those seem to me to be the big differences in his review. But it seems strange to me that he would trash a build with the Metro stuff, and one built by Larry. I could see if he said that the amp sounded good, but not like the originals he has played with RS OTs and more B+. So I agree, there’s something fishy about this article.

[MacGaden]

Ok, so I've now read the article too, although on my copy (pdf), I have a hard time making out the right side of the righthand column of the first page. It seems strange to me. Basically Udo got a standard Metro kit with premium Sozos, and he did say all the negative things that were quoted at the beginning of this thread. He never said "it sounded good, just not like an original..." Basically by changing to the Marstran transformers, NOS mustard caps, and AB resistors, it sounded great to him. There were other things, but these were the main complaints.

That´s wrong: The amp Udo "reviewed" was never a standard Metro kit, and he did´nt touch it. It was built by Larry.

I quoted his original response in the thread on the German forum, where he said something completely different than in the review.

I'm no expert on JTM45s and have never heard an original. Since this thread started, I have done some web research and here's my take and some lingering questions:

1. It seems that the PT voltages varied in the originals. George chose the lower voltages, because he liked the sound. Germino offers the lower voltage on his 45 clone, though I can’t figure out if that’s an option at this point, or if it’s just what he’s doing on all of those amps. My B+ is about 370 (I measured at the standby switch). From my research, I think higher voltage would deliver more headroom, tighter bass and maybe more brightness. Ok, but I don't think that makes the lower voltage PT sound bad, the way Udo describes it.

2. OT: As I understand it, the Metro Drake type is just as authentic as the Marstran RS type, but they do sound different. But how different do they sound and in what way? I don't know. I’m curious if anyone could describe it.

3. NOS mustards. Someone just resurrected that thread on Sozo v.s mustards from 2008. I recall that thread, and had a hard time hearing significant differences in the clips. I changed my standard Sozos to the premium at that time, and I can’t remember clearly, but I don’t think I even heard a big change when I put the premiums in my build. I think this is a very subtle difference and just can’t result in a bad sounding amp.

4. AB resistors. I have a set at home, but haven’t put them in yet. As far as I can tell this is probably even more subtle than the mustards.

I am still curious about the Marstran trannies, and what and RS type OT and more B+ would do to my build. Those seem to me to be the big differences in his review. But it seems strange to me that he would trash a build with the Metro stuff, and one built by Larry. I could see if he said that the amp sounded good, but not like the originals he has played with RS OTs and more B+. So I agree, there’s something fishy about this article.

You can check out the thread, the link is in this thread somewhere. I recommend it. It´s very interesting, and gives you some of the answers to the questions you ask.

Why do I care ? Because Pipper basically lies about two of the people I have come to respect most in the ampworld: Larry and George. He must, I hope, have very good reasons for doing it, apart from his own gain: As you have seen he builds JTM45 clones too.. Maybe he felt his guru status was threatened.

Whenever I have had the opportunity to do my own research by testing the same stuff Pipper has reviewed, I have been left with a strange feeling:

Case in point: Pipper gave a glowing review of a German designed, Chinese built JTM45 clone, the Cream JTA45.
Basically he said it was very close to an old original, and at a very reasonable price. So I was interested.
Me and a friend had the opportunity to test one: It was poorly built (I have the pics to prove it!) and it had a very harsh, annoying, sound no matter what tubes we put in it, including NOS Mullards and GEC KT66´s. We even compared it to an original JTM45 one of my friends owns: No contest. At all. It did´nt even sound good evaluated on it´s own terms, harsh and unresponsive.
There´s a video of Pipper playing it on youtube, very compressed, and with a lot of reverb. He admits he changed pre-amp tubes, but...: What else did change, and not tell about in the review ? Or did the amps sound like the one we tested, and he chose to write something else ?

He is, off course, free to write whatever he wants. But with his status, and his access to an audience comes a big responsibility.
Pipper have´nt lived up to it in this case, and maybe in others.

George and Larry have chosen not to comment, and since these are two of the straightest guys I know, that tells me a lot.

[billstets]

Thanks. I'll have to take a look at the thread when I have time. I didn't know Pipper built and sold 45s. I don't recall reading that in the article. If that's the case, that really smells bad!!

The one thing that continues to bother me about this though, is that he has some great sounding youtube clips with 45s, and I don't feel I'm able to get those tones with my build. I do think some of it may be the recordings. I do very little recording myself. As I recall, when I have mic'd up my amps at home, the recordings always have a fuller midrange with less piercing highs than I hear in the room. So maybe I need to record my amp and use that as a reference.

[shakti]

Don't forget those clips were recorded with a vintage Les Paul. No substitute for that. GECs and higher plate voltage account for a lot of the difference you're hearing beyond that, IMHO.

[D-Max]

I just read the entire thread on the historiclespauls.com forum.

Larry visited today and has shed some light on the matter.

I put his comment through Google translate and the German to English translation comes out fairly OK compared to his original German text.

Just read for yourself.

[Roe]

the 45 wasn't a standard build - larry changed lots of details.

[somethin'else]

It's interesting, and entertaining, to read Google translation pages. And thank goodness Google has this kind of support.

So don't forget, sometimes in translating > things are said in a backwards arrangement to English (or English is a backwards arrangement of older languages! )

So when "but in particular I saw George massively pissed on his back!" should probably be translated as "in particular how he pissed on George's back!"

another great interpretation = "the water rich", referring to standard Metro kits.

Reading Larry's Google translated German is like reading Shakespeare! Larry rules.

[Roe]

the google translation of German is just terrible.

[somethin'else]

yeah, it is pretty bad. but it's all us yankee's got?

Maybe "water rich" meant "in a sea of kit producers, George's stands out"?

Anyway, thanks for the link D-Max. I'm glad Larry had to come back to say something in clarification. He has a conscience!

[billstets]

yeah, it is pretty bad. but it's all us yankee's got?

Maybe "water rich" meant "in a sea of kit producers, George's stands out"?

Anyway, thanks for the link D-Max. I'm glad Larry had to come back to say something in clarification. He has a conscience!

That's correct. The English equivalent for that phrase is that none of the other aforementioned kits can hold a candle to the Metro kit. The literal translation doesn't make much sense. It would be something like the other kits can't pass (or reach) the water, or perhaps the other kits can't be enough water. Either way, it's really a colloquial phrase in this context. But it's not the noun Reich (rich) that was used, but rather the verb 'reichen.'