Gene Simmons Demos Date

[leadguy]

Michael White of Boyz says that Gene saw Boyz on Halloween 1976 and asked them where they were playing next and it was the next week at the Starwood with VH.

So the week after Halloween is the 7th November 1976 and according to the KISSTORY book and Michael White from Boyz that's when Gene saw VH and Gene had to do a KISS tour starting on November the 24th (Nov. 24, 1976 - Apr. 4, 1977 Rock and Roll All Over Tour) so the Gene Simmons Demos were recorded between the 7th and 24th November and from photos from the time Ed was using the White Ibanez Destroyer and a burst Strat with a white Mighty Mite Distortion pickup so those are the guitars on the Gene Simmons demos.

Gene Simmons Running With The Devil http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp3K6zrQgwE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; recorded in LA has Ed's Echoplex on it (and Ed's effects) and is that the Destroyer string rake at the start.

----------------------------------------------------

Gene was in LA during a KISS break that seems to be around October/November 1976 and he took VH to the Village Recorder Studios in LA to record the demos but Gene had to return to a upcoming KISS tour (Nov. 24, 1976 - Apr. 4, 1977 Rock and Roll All Over Tour) and so he flew them to NY for a quick record contract audition and Ed added a few solo overdubs (which he had trouble doing) probably with the NY Electric Ladyland studios gear or hired gear and then they were declined and Gene couldn't shop the demos anymore because he had to tour with KISS and VH went back to LA but the majority of the Gene Simmons Demos including Running With The Devil were recorded in LA with Ed's gear.

"After we recorded some of the demo, I flew them to New York and got them into Electric Lady Studios and finished off the tape. It cost about $6,500. What amazed me was when we got into the studio, Eddie recorded a lot of his effects direct. The usual practice is to add effects from the board, but he had everything so under control all you had to basically was mic his amp."

"Not all of the demo of the Van Halen demo recording was done in New York. The band had initially been taken to The Village Recorder studios in Los Angeles, with "two guitar solos (overdubs) were later recorded at Electric Ladyland Studios in New York... While in New York, Simmons setup a showcase performance for S.I.R's Bill Aucoin, but Aucoin saw no commercial potential in Van Halen"

"We had been in the studio for the first time ever about a year earlier with Gene Simmons of Kiss, and I quickly learned that I didn’t like overdubbing. Simmons produced a three-song demo for us that consisted of ‘Runnin’ with the Devil,’ ‘House of Pain’ and a song called ‘Babe, Don’t Leave Me Alone.’ Gene said, ‘Here’s what you do in the studio—you play your rhythm parts on one track, and your solo parts on another.’

“I remember feeling very uncomfortable with separating my lead and fill parts from my rhythm parts. Onstage, I’d gotten used to doing both simultaneously. I’d just noodle in between chord lines. Because it was my first time in a recording studio, it didn’t occur to me to say, ‘Can’t I play just the way I play live?’

“The demo didn’t work out, anyway. When we finished recording with Gene, we met with Kiss’ manager, Bill Aucoin. When we went to his office he was getting a shoeshine and said, “I don’t see any commercial potential. Besides that, I’ve got my hands full because I just signed a band called Piper [featuring a then-unknown Billy Squier]. It was really depressing—we were totally bummed. Gene gave us a couple hundred bucks to make our way home. We just kept playing the Whisky and the Starwood in Los Angeles, and about a year later Warner Bros. came down and eventually signed us.”

They recorded this demo (Gene Simmons demos) sometime around May 1976 at Village Recorder Studios in Los Angeles after an evening gig at the Starwood. Two guitar solos were later recorded at Electric LadyLand Studios in New York. While in New York, the band performed (using Kiss's equipment) for S I R's Bill Aucoin, who passed to sign the band Piper.

Van Halen Encyclopedia.

[Kapo_Polenton]

Kind of off topic but listening to the same demo sessions and "Women in Love", does anyone else hear a Shenker influence on the leads and rythm?? Everybody builds from someone else and I def hear it.Anyway...

[rgorke]

Michael White of Boyz says that Gene saw Boyz on Halloween 1976 and asked them where they were playing next and it was the next week at the Starwood with VH.

So the week after Halloween is the 7th November 1976 and according to the KISSTORY book and Michael White from Boyz that's when Gene saw VH and Gene had to do a KISS tour starting on November the 24th (Nov. 24, 1976 - Apr. 4, 1977 Rock and Roll All Over Tour) so the Gene Simmons Demos were recorded between the 7th and 24th November and from photos from the time Ed was using the White Ibanez Destroyer and a burst Strat with a white Mighty Mite Distortion pickup so those are the guitars on the Gene Simmons demos.

Gene Simmons Running With The Devil http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp3K6zrQgwE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; recorded in LA has Ed's Echoplex on it (and Ed's effects) and is that the Destroyer string rake at the start.

----------------------------------------------------

Gene was in LA during a KISS break that seems to be around October/November 1976 and he took VH to the Village Recorder Studios in LA to record the demos but Gene had to return to a upcoming KISS tour (Nov. 24, 1976 - Apr. 4, 1977 Rock and Roll All Over Tour) and so he flew them to NY for a quick record contract audition and Ed added a few solo overdubs (which he had trouble doing) probably with the NY Electric Ladyland studios gear or hired gear and then they were declined and Gene couldn't shop the demos anymore because he had to tour with KISS and VH went back to LA but the majority of the Gene Simmons Demos including Running With The Devil were recorded in LA with Ed's gear.

"After we recorded some of the demo, I flew them to New York and got them into Electric Lady Studios and finished off the tape. It cost about $6,500. What amazed me was when we got into the studio, Eddie recorded a lot of his effects direct. The usual practice is to add effects from the board, but he had everything so under control all you had to basically was mic his amp."

"Not all of the demo of the Van Halen demo recording was done in New York. The band had initially been taken to The Village Recorder studios in Los Angeles, with "two guitar solos (overdubs) were later recorded at Electric Ladyland Studios in New York... While in New York, Simmons setup a showcase performance for S.I.R's Bill Aucoin, but Aucoin saw no commercial potential in Van Halen"

"We had been in the studio for the first time ever about a year earlier with Gene Simmons of Kiss, and I quickly learned that I didn’t like overdubbing. Simmons produced a three-song demo for us that consisted of ‘Runnin’ with the Devil,’ ‘House of Pain’ and a song called ‘Babe, Don’t Leave Me Alone.’ Gene said, ‘Here’s what you do in the studio—you play your rhythm parts on one track, and your solo parts on another.’

“I remember feeling very uncomfortable with separating my lead and fill parts from my rhythm parts. Onstage, I’d gotten used to doing both simultaneously. I’d just noodle in between chord lines. Because it was my first time in a recording studio, it didn’t occur to me to say, ‘Can’t I play just the way I play live?’

“The demo didn’t work out, anyway. When we finished recording with Gene, we met with Kiss’ manager, Bill Aucoin. When we went to his office he was getting a shoeshine and said, “I don’t see any commercial potential. Besides that, I’ve got my hands full because I just signed a band called Piper [featuring a then-unknown Billy Squier]. It was really depressing—we were totally bummed. Gene gave us a couple hundred bucks to make our way home. We just kept playing the Whisky and the Starwood in Los Angeles, and about a year later Warner Bros. came down and eventually signed us.”"

What is the source of these quotes?

[leadguy]

Interviews with the Boyz singer and Guitar World and other interviews with Gene and Ed and the KISSTORY book.

[jimi22812]

When you listen to the the Simmon's demos you can easily understand why Aucoin wasn't impressed... IMO, the band sounds just sounds ordinary at best and bland and lifeless at worst. You can't even compare it to the sonic assault of VH I . It's like watching your favorite movie on a 10" black and white vacuum tube TV and then popping in a Blue Ray DVD of the same movie on a 52" HD flat screen!

[leadguy]

Yeah and neither do the Warner Bros Demos from around May 1977 sound like VH1 but they sound more like it than the Gene Simmons Demos do but the Warner Bros Demos are still not near VH1 which means that the recording techniques of VH1 played a big part in the VH1 sound.
Gene probably told Ed what to do because Ed was a novice in the studio. Maybe Gene told Ed to ditch the variac.
The end result is Ed sounding like a mix of Ed and Ace through a solid state Peavey IMO.
Genes micing setup and recording and the studio acoustics were really bad for the VH demos IMO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5tXXEgu ... re=channel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think Ted let Ed do more of what he wanted for the Warner Bros Demos and that is the big difference along with Ted's better production and better studio acoustics.

The Warner Bros Demos sound more like a VH live boot and as far as I know Ted Templeman recorded Ed Al and Mike together and they did all the songs in one day and DLR's vocals and the backing vocals were done the next day. The guitars according to photos are the Destroyer and maybe the burst Strat with a Mighty Mite distortion pickup or the black Strat with a Mighty Mite zebra vintage pickup.

Also notice that there is no tapping in the Warner Brothers Demos, You Really Got Me and the phase stands out in the solo. The actual verse rhythm guitar tone is really nothing new for 1977.

[Sral68]

The most interesting thing about the demoes is hearing how they rearranged and reworked the songs for VH1. They really sharpened up a lot of the songs. Apart from that, you can hear how much work has gone into making the vocals sound good. Running with the devil also has a better impact with the change in tempo for VH1. I guess the produces had something to do with this.

[leadguy]

Quite a few changes from the Gene Simmons demos to VH1 and it's really only a years difference plus there are quite a few changes between the Warner Bros demos and VH1 and they are only months apart from each other, like the WB YRGM has a different solo to the VH1 YRGM but both solos have the same basic structure.

[redozzman]

Yeah and neither do the Warner Bros Demos from around May 1977 sound like VH1 but they sound more like it than the Gene Simmons Demos do but the Warner Bros Demos are still not near VH1 which means that the recording techniques of VH1 played a big part in the VH1 sound.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5tXXEgu ... re=channel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Warner Bros Demos sound more like a VH live boot and as far as I know Ted Templeman recorded Ed Al and Mike together and they did all the songs in one day and DLR's vocals and the backing vocals were done the next day. The guitars according to photos are the Destroyer and maybe the burst Strat with a Mighty Mite distortion pickup or the black Strat with a Mighty Mite zebra vintage pickup.

Also notice that there is no tapping in the Warner Brothers Demos, You Really Got Me and the phase stands out in the solo. The actual verse rhythm guitar tone is really nothing new for 1977.

No offense Leadguy, but have you listened to the WB demos lately? they blow away the Simmons demo and the amp tone is there in spades, the overall quality is no where near that of VH1 but I can hear that killer amp tone, the simmons demos sound like Kiss "basic marshall tones) the WB demos sound like ed!

[guitar007]

To me...the demos are as follows:

Simmon's Demo: basic "cranked" to 10 Marshall tone. Blah...nothing worth mentioning going on, tone wise. Ed’s still awesome, though.

WB Demo: Magic Marshall Rig. NO ONE ELSE SOUNDS LIKE THIS!!! This tone is totally unique to Ed. Ed’s on fire!

[ericopp]

methinks Ed wasnt allowed to fly his magic marshall (or cabs) out to NY for the Gene demos.
For the Warner Bros demos, he was allowed to crank his magic Marshall (and maybe slave it - maybe with a stick of dynamite...) into his Celestion AND JBL loaded cabs. THose JBLS add a ton of sizzle to his tone, and you can definitely hear that all over the Warner Bros demos, almost to a fault...

[leadguy]

Some of the early VH club boots have the Gene Simmons sort of Marshall tone on them.

Rudy said something interesting http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29116" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; about heads and cabs being added in a split daisy chained way.

Perhaps the Simmons demos are just one Marshall and the later club boots and WB demos are daisy chained amps set up in an interesting way with the effects.

Ed apparently did Running with the Devil in LA with Gene Simmons and has his Echoplex etc and IMO it was Ed's gear seeing that it was mostly done in LA except for some small overdubs and flying a amp head from LA to NY is not that difficult anyway.

[redozzman]

Some of the early VH club boots have the Gene Simmons sort of Marshall tone on them.

Rudy said something interesting http://forum.metroamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=29116" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; about heads and cabs being added in a split daisy chained way.

Perhaps the Simmons demos are just one Marshall and the later club boots and WB demos are daisy chained amps set up in an interesting way with the effects.

Ed apparently did Running with the Devil in LA with Gene Simmons and has his Echoplex etc and IMO it was Ed's gear seeing that it was mostly done in LA except for some small overdubs and flying a amp head from LA to NY is not that difficult anyway.

I think that Eds rig changed between the Simmons Demo and the WB demos. The overall Drive on his amps went from Ballsy Marshall tone to balls to the walls cranked marshall tone! Compare live stuff from early 76 to late 76,77 the gain bumps up to another level. Could be recording quality but it sure seems that way to me.

[Tone Slinger]

Alway's great insights leadguy, man you and strat78 are the Sherlock Holmes of these forum's, always getting to the real truths.

Here is my current thought, based highly on the the timelines mentioned by the afformentioned.


Ed got 2 different basic tones on those Simmons demo's (LA and NY) Both were standard fare Marshall. I feel Ed used that 'first' strat, the burst one. His tremelo licks sounded crude, like he was still getting used to the bar and hadnt learned all the varables yet. The tremelo springs sounded too tight making his use of the tremelo not as quick and smooth. I feel he probably flew his burst strat and Destroyer to NY along with a carry on bag of effects (phase 90, echoplex, etc).


The Warner Bros. Demo sounded VERY much like the Ed we all know and love. I think Ed used his exact live gig set up, along with the Black strat (Franky probably) and Destroyer. The tremelo licks were more 'loose goose' sounding, as well as the overall tone being like VH1. I think the same guitars and amps were used on VH1.

That tune that starts out with Dave singing about a "Pretty Lady, Like a little girl, thinks she seen the world" or something like that, sounds like the exact set up of the first album. The intonation and inflections of those high, 17th and 20th fret bends in that solo come off very close to the 'Eruption' sound.

Still, the production, along more so with the bands actual, vibe and temperment (Party !!!!) and attitude during the first album was what made it so spectacular, and unduplicatable.

[leadguy]

"They recorded this demo (Gene Simmons demos) sometime around May 1976 at Village Recorder Studios in Los Angeles after an evening gig at the Starwood. Two guitar solos were later recorded at Electric LadyLand Studios in New York. While in New York, the band performed (using Kiss's equipment) for S I R's Bill Aucoin, who passed to sign the band Piper."

Van Halen Encyclopedia.


I think this explains the whole Gene Simmons demos deal but maybe the date is a bit variable.

This explains the confusion over Kiss's equipment being used.

VH only performed live in NY using Kiss equipment and Ed only recorded 2 small guitar overdubs probably using Kiss equipment.

All of the rest of the tape was recorded in LA after a Starwood date with what one would assume, would have to be Ed's own equipment and Amp.

That is why Ed's echoplex and phase etc are on the Gene Simmons demo tapes because most of the tape was recorded in LA with Ed's equipment and the only things Ed put down in NY without his own equipment (echoplex, phase, amp) were 2 small solo overdubs.

The solo bits that Ed put down in NY would not have Ed's echoplex and/or phase on them unless Kiss had an echoplex and/or phase.

Gene finished mixing the tape (very badly IMO) in NY.

The reason why it sounds so bad, is because Gene did the demo cheap and the micing and mixing was really bad and Ed took directions about how to play separate lead/rhythm and probably other things like amp tone setup etc from Gene who was calling the shots and the demo tape was never meant to be the main thing, it was an optional extra, the main thing was for VH to audition for Bill Aucoin in NY to hopefully get signed.