Metropoulos Forum

So, back to my original question... what do I need to do to get that chewiness that I am not hearing? Rockstah, Ralle, and I are all using the same speakers.. and I am thinking that the 6402 cones might be the issue. What can you guys tell me about the difference in frequencies between the 1777 cones and 6402 cones?

One thing that stands out for you and Ralle etc is that you all don't seem to be getting Ed's sharp 5kHz frequency cutoff that would probably be due to Ed's Celestion.

Believe it or not, Ed has less 5kHz and higher frequency content than you guys.

Ed's speaker is cutting off the frequencies above 5kHz pretty sharply and around 5kHz where the frequency cutoff starts to happen there is a pretty sharp frequency cutoff.

So I would say that there is probably a rather large speaker difference between Ed and you guys.

leadguy wrote:

So, back to my original question... what do I need to do to get that chewiness that I am not hearing? Rockstah, Ralle, and I are all using the same speakers.. and I am thinking that the 6402 cones might be the issue. What can you guys tell me about the difference in frequencies between the 1777 cones and 6402 cones?

One thing that stands out for you and Ralle etc is that you all don't seem to be getting Ed's sharp 5kHz frequency cutoff that would probably be due to Ed's Celestion.

Believe it or not, Ed has less 5kHz and higher frequency content than you guys.

Ed's speaker is cutting off the frequencies above 5kHz pretty sharply and around 5kHz where the frequency cutoff starts to happen there is a pretty sharp frequency cutoff.

So I would say that there is probably a rather large speaker difference between Ed and you guys.

That is what I am thinking! It only makes sense too me now. Sooo... do you think that the original Blackbacks are the key? Or maybe the reissue's that came with the Vintage Modern amps? G12Cs? 1777 cones?

Quite Frankly, I don't really know.
I'm not really up with current speakers.
Maybe someone else can chip in.

I think that a lot of people miss the boat about the 60s and 70s.

In the 60s and 70s there were not really any reissues and hardly any third party makers trying to clone things.

How close a PAF clone is now to a real PAF is something to consider and the same for speakers.

Ed was using the real deal and not reissues or clones so the difference might be a fair bit.

I've got some Rola/Plessey speakers from the 70s that AC/DC used to use sometimes and the difference between them and a more modern speaker is pretty noticeable to me.

motrock wrote:So, back to my original question... what do I need to do to get that chewiness that I am not hearing? Rockstah, Ralle, and I are all using the same speakers.. and I am thinking that the 6402 cones might be the issue. What can you guys tell me about the difference in frequencies between the 1777 cones and 6402 cones?

Well I'm not qualified to know the differance between speaker cones ..that's something for people like sumback..but I do know a good frequency response for what your looking for and this is it... Sharp cutoff at 5khz - just like EVH....boosted mids (600hz)-just like EVH.....cut at 1.2khz(later boostedw/6band)-just like EVH..and that nice hump at2-3khz-just like EVH Fender/Celstian/EVH copy of the black back:

Yeah, they look promising, on paper at least.

This is what I would want to get for VH1 tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mlm2nDy ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thats live and unprocessed by studio magic!

motrock wrote:This is what I would want to get for VH1 tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mlm2nDy ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thats live and unprocessed by studio magic!

Wow .. ...He must be using a wah in some parts..no? ... great clip and you have a good point about a live clip too. That has got to be the real core essence of EVH tone...I was actually reading an old interview where he stated he was using the same rig live as he did in the studio for recording vh1 back in78.

So here is a spectrum of the same group of licks I've been examining , lo and behold you aren't to far away, even the 600hz dip and of course a 1.2khz spike...it just wouldn't be an evh clip without it

motrock wrote:This is what I would want to get for VH1 tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mlm2nDy ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thats live and unprocessed by studio magic!

That sounds like a PAF style pickup to me. Doesn't have a DSD or MM high output vibe to it. Ed's attacking the strings when he wants to for more juice.

Good Guest wrote:

motrock wrote:This is what I would want to get for VH1 tone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mlm2nDy ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thats live and unprocessed by studio magic!

Wow .. ...He must be using a wah in some parts..no? ... great clip and you have a good point about a live clip too. That has got to be the real core essence of EVH tone...I was actually reading an old interview where he stated he was using the same rig live as he did in the studio for recording vh1 back in78.

So here is a spectrum of the same group of licks I've been examining , lo and behold you aren't to far away, even the 600hz dip and of course a 1.2khz spike...it just wouldn't be an evh clip without it

MotEvh78Liv.jpg

This is my target tone for the VH1 tone. His live tone on this clip blows my mind! I am considering that the amount of gain on the first album had a lot to do with not only the Blackbacks... but also the JBLs. Those JBLs add tons of gain. Just listen to those ISO tracks that Dave Friedman posted.

Time to find myself some Blackbacks. Hmmm.. where to start? I don't use ebay.. so I guess I am limited to the different forums.

i found long and hard to like blackbacks for VH. good luck.

rockstah wrote:i found long and hard to like blackbacks for VH. good luck.

Well, I am just not getting the response that I would have wanted out of the 6402 cones. Dave Friedman stated before that 1777 cones were what I really need to find... original Blackbacks. Dave Phillips/Rackdoctor seems to have great luck with his. Maybe you had some duds? I guess that you never know what you are going to get by getting older speakers like that. If could of been a number of factors... so who knows.

could be, ill keep my eye out for your findings with them.

motrock wrote:

rockstah wrote:i found long and hard to like blackbacks for VH. good luck.

Well, I am just not getting the response that I would have wanted out of the 6402 cones. Dave Friedman stated before that 1777 cones were what I really need to find... original Blackbacks. Dave Phillips/Rackdoctor seems to have great luck with his. Maybe you had some duds? I guess that you never know what you are going to get by getting older speakers like that. If could of been a number of factors... so who knows.

I should say that I am considering getting just one Blackback and installing it in to my 4x12 with the others. I would love to mic it and compare it with the 6402 tone. Would be an interesting experiment!

rockstah wrote:could be, ill keep my eye out for your findings with them.

motrock wrote:

rockstah wrote:i found long and hard to like blackbacks for VH. good luck.

Well, I am just not getting the response that I would have wanted out of the 6402 cones. Dave Friedman stated before that 1777 cones were what I really need to find... original Blackbacks. Dave Phillips/Rackdoctor seems to have great luck with his. Maybe you had some duds? I guess that you never know what you are going to get by getting older speakers like that. If could of been a number of factors... so who knows.

Well... if you happen to find one Blackback for sale on the net.. 16ohms.. let me know!

rockstah wrote:could be, ill keep my eye out for your findings with them.

motrock wrote:

rockstah wrote:i found long and hard to like blackbacks for VH. good luck.

Well, I am just not getting the response that I would have wanted out of the 6402 cones. Dave Friedman stated before that 1777 cones were what I really need to find... original Blackbacks. Dave Phillips/Rackdoctor seems to have great luck with his. Maybe you had some duds? I guess that you never know what you are going to get by getting older speakers like that. If could of been a number of factors... so who knows.

I have some '79 Blackbacks in my slant cab on the bottom and the top are Greenback MIE reissues. I *always* end up putting the mic on the Greenbacks for recording and gigs. To me, they have a bit more brightness to them than the Blackbacks.