Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

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FL6
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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by FL6 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 11:35 pm

I've read about this before. So if I got this straight tune your A to 430 and go from there?

It's funny, 440 is the tone they used when the tv stations ended their broadcasting at 3am or whatever. That's going back a bit.

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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by garbeaj » Sat Sep 17, 2016 8:24 pm

jnew wrote:There are songs where the B string needs to be slightly flat for some of the chords to work. Actually quite a few. Jamie's Cryin is one of them for that KILLER D bar chord with the open B string. If that B is not a touch flat in relation to the rest of the tuning, that chord doesn't sound good. On the other hand, 7th Seal goes slightly the other way for those triad chords to sound with the constant open high E string. But whichever you're doing, the high E has to be in tune with the B string. 8)
But not always...again there is no rubric that I have found for every recording of every song. True, most of the tunings I have notated usually have the high E and B strings in tune with each other, but not always. For example, the high E on "Runnin' With The Devil" is NOT in tune with the B string for that recording.

I haven't checked the tuning on "Jamie's Cryin'" but I'll find and notate that one next. That big D chord is not a barre chord, but rather a power chord with the open B ringing...same idea that you hear in "On Fire". Should be interesting to compare both of those...

But, again, I can't detect a pattern in the tunings that is applied every time. Some tunings are repeated on different songs on different albums, but it is not always the same. I tend to think it is totally down to Eddie and Eddie alone. But I try not to concern myself with why Eddie used offset tunings, I just want to record the different tunings as they exist. Not Why they are there, but that they Are there and then What the tunings are exactly. I'll leave it up to Plexi and The Lone Gunmen to postulate answers for the Why? question...

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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by jnew » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:52 am

I don't discern Power chord from Barre chord. To me a chord is either barred or open. Just like a big open E chord with everything ringing could be a power chord. But hey, what ever works. 8)
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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by garbeaj » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:05 pm

jnew wrote:I don't discern Power chord from Barre chord. To me a chord is either barred or open. Just like a big open E chord with everything ringing could be a power chord. But hey, what ever works. 8)
Hah-hah! True...the term "power chord" is not a real music theory term of course. Power chords aren't even chords according to music theory because they don't contain a third note :)

A "power chord" as defined by just about every rock player is a chord with two notes, a root on the bottom and a fifth and sometimes the higher octave of the root on top. If there is any other note in the chord besides a root and it's fifth, then it ain't a power chord. A power chord can be a barre chord if you use one finger to barre across at least two strings. Typically players will use three fingers or two fingers with one of the two fingers used to barre across two strings for the fifth and the high octave note.

So I was wrong...a power chord can be a barre chord!

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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by Rich_D » Tue Sep 20, 2016 5:05 pm

The distortion makes the rest of the intervals/harmonics in a real power chord, which is somewhat related to the thread. Of course, we all have to chose which B-tuning to use which I can only do by whether a song has more open or barre chords and compromise that way. Isn't this how everyone does it? Garbeaj, I'll handle the why and assume Ed's supernatural ears took it a step past that and tuned because he loved the way the amp did growls or beats on a certain section. I know I like individual parts in VH songs that the distortion beats like angels harmonizing.
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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by fivecoyote » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:25 pm

Fascinating P-fied tx man! I can't wait to try it, though I guess I'll have to buy a tuner?

Couple things for whatever they're worth:

> I always detune acoustics. To whatever sounds good. They just sound huge that way to me.

> I have never used a tuner, having had my time in the rock n roll sun when no one used them...that I saw or was aware of anyway. So every time tuning up is by ear, and those G B E strings are never exactly there but good enough. I can get pretty close to tuning "correctly" by ear, but once I (and I assume everybody?) start banging away with the right hand they are immediately out of tune. So I would always tune certain strings flat to compensate for the "boing" -- quick trial and error. I have to assume with Ed's wicked strong right hand that he did the same?
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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by garbeaj » Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:48 am

fivecoyote wrote:I can get pretty close to tuning "correctly" by ear, but once I (and I assume everybody?) start banging away with the right hand they are immediately out of tune. So I would always tune certain strings flat to compensate for the "boing" -- quick trial and error. I have to assume with Ed's wicked strong right hand that he did the same?
I wouldn't say that everyone is immediately out of tune when they start picking hard...Stevie Ray Vaughan played VERY hard with his right hand and he certainly did NOT go out of tune as a result.

Another thing I would disagree with is the assumption that Eddie has a particularly hard pick attack...Generally speaking, I don't think his pick attack was very hard at all. Although I do see where people get that impression. His picking direction (choice of Up or Down pick strokes) accents certain notes a great deal, especially on the "Up" pick strokes. You can really hear this in the opening runs of "Spanish Fly" and many other places. This gives the impression of a heavy attack. And Eddie's pick attack and picking direction choices come from two places in my opinion...specifically Eric Clapton's live Cream playing and straight alternate picking, as wjamflan has pointed out before years ago. I can talk about the specifics of these in another thread because I don't want to derail Plexi's thread any further.

My thread about Eddie's specific tunings on specific recordings and in live situations should answer any questions you might have as far as what he did specifically.viewtopic.php?f=49&t=42944

I think I've shown more often than not he had a specific plan for exactly how he would tune. If he did any "trial and error" tuning, I think it would have been in the very early stages...his use of alternate tunings is clearly deliberate. Some specific songs have completely unique tunings while many others have alternate/offset tunings that are repeated from song to song within albums and/or across several different albums.
Last edited by garbeaj on Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by garbeaj » Wed Sep 21, 2016 1:37 pm

jnew wrote:There are songs where the B string needs to be slightly flat for some of the chords to work. Actually quite a few. Jamie's Cryin is one of them for that KILLER D bar chord with the open B string. If that B is not a touch flat in relation to the rest of the tuning, that chord doesn't sound good. On the other hand, 7th Seal goes slightly the other way for those triad chords to sound with the constant open high E string. But whichever you're doing, the high E has to be in tune with the B string. 8)
To the best of my ability, I have found and notated the tuning for the main guitar track on "Jamie's Cryin'" from the Van Halen LP as follows:

1st string: Eb + 7.7 cents
2nd string: Bb + 7.9 cents
3rd string: F# + 9.6 cents
4th string: C# +10.0 cents
5th string: Ab +10.0 cents
6th string: Eb +7.7 cents

These are "true pitches" that can be dialed in with any strobe tuner with a variable cent reference...(I have also notated this tuning elsewhere in my tuning thread using Peterson's "Sweetened GTR" offset tuning preset which corresponds to these pitches.) They are all tuned Up by the amount of cents I have listed for each string from chromatic Eb or "1/2 step down" tuning.

I used the isolated guitar track and the DCC Compact Classics Master Recording gold CD for reference. I used my '75-'76 Ibanez Destroyer to find and notate the tunings which is the closest guitar I have to Eddie's original '75-'76 Ibanez Destroyer, the guitar that Eddie has mentioned many times as being the guitar he used to record this track. I haven't yet checked the tuning for the tremolo equipped guitar used to record the intro and outro harmony melodies, but I would guess the tuning is probably the same...but you never know with Eddie!

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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by fivecoyote » Thu Sep 22, 2016 4:40 pm

Interesting garbeaj, tx man. Maybe I pick harder to hear what I want to hear for attack, and Ed didn't have to? When I saw them on the first or second or whatever it was reunion tour, when they had the huge video screen behind them, I was just awed at how Ed pretty much brutalized the guitar. He MASHED it. Left hand for sure, but thought his right hand too -- maybe his right hand is softer? Someone (Terry Kilgore) said Ed could break your hand with a handshake. Will check it out, tx for the brain waves.
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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by garbeaj » Thu Sep 22, 2016 6:38 pm

fivecoyote wrote:Interesting garbeaj, tx man. Maybe I pick harder to hear what I want to hear for attack, and Ed didn't have to? When I saw them on the first or second or whatever it was reunion tour, when they had the huge video screen behind them, I was just awed at how Ed pretty much brutalized the guitar. He MASHED it. Left hand for sure, but thought his right hand too -- maybe his right hand is softer? Someone (Terry Kilgore) said Ed could break your hand with a handshake. Will check it out, tx for the brain waves.
You are welcome...I would say that the strength of your handshake has little or nothing to do with your pick attack. You can have strong hands and the capability to pick hard...but you will reach a point of diminishing returns as you pick harder and harder. The harder you pick, the weaker and more dead the sound.

Stevie used heavier strings and his median pick attack or the average level of picking force was heavier. Some of the most expressive parts of Stevie's attack came from pulling and snapping the strings with his fingers, particularly the high E when he would play his world famous Albert King licks.

By contrast, Eddie used (and still uses) light gauge strings. He absolutely did not have a hard pick attack...at least no harder than Eric Clapton. The "pow" and "snap" that you hear in most of Eddie's playing is actually because of "Up"-strokes and not "Down"-strokes and with a "Medium"-force pick attack, at least as nearly as I can tell. As I said, listen to the flat picked parts of "Spanish Fly"...I guarantee that the "pop" and "snap" you hear all over those passages are the result of "Up"-strokes...those sounds are not achievable with "Down"-strokes.

wjamflan schooled me on this recently and it really opened my eyes. I learned "Spanish Fly" up to speed at 14 in 1986, but I never achieved the "pop" and "snap" that you hear on the recording...that's because I wasn't using the correct picking directions. You can really hear this clearly in the opening picked parts of "Spanish Fly", but the correct picking patterns with the popping "Up"-strokes show up all over Eddie's playing. It gives the perception of a heavy attack, but really it is medium force with the aggressive popping sound coming from the bounce of the string which is way more pronounced with an "Up"-stroke than with a "Down"-stroke.

Also, Eddie used Fender Medium picks (usually the brown tortoise colored celluloid) up until the 1984 tour when he switched to Thin picks. When you use a Medium to Thin pick, there is so much give in the pick that it really makes picking with a heavy attack virtually impossible, even if you choke up on the pick.

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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by Rich_D » Fri Sep 23, 2016 5:58 pm

garbeaj wrote:I think I've shown more often than not he had a specific plan for exactly how he would tune. If he did any "trial and error" tuning, I think it would have been in the very early stages...his use of alternate tunings is clearly deliberate. Some specific songs have completely unique tunings while many others have alternate/offset tunings that are repeated from song to song within albums and/or across several different albums.
This is what I was vaguely getting at. Thanks, and sorry if that was a derail.
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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by plexified » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:28 am

Look ,
Garbeaj is doing a killer job in documenting these tunings. I am not in this same concept. He is painstakingly doing ultimate research into what EVH presented on pressed vinyl and masters. I am not even close to touching upon this. I think since its bleeding together its awesome Garbeaj is getting this out their where these albums are with relation to tunings and Jnew is spot on too with his input on the way we have to check the entire fretboard for actually playing in the zone. A pure chromatic or robot tuning does not work. I have a regiment of tunings with a Peterson strobe tuner from guys like Niel Young and James Taylor playing 100k Martin D-45's and thats not even what I am refering to.
Here the earth has a resonant frequency of 7.83 hertz and tuning your instrument to this frequency and energy developes a synergy at this core frequency that absolutely creates pure harmony within the tuning and enhances the wood in particular within an acoustic instrument that enhances sustain and less need for tuning compensations like a Buzz Feiten nut or as such. It does so because the sympathetic resonances are inherantly in the wood to begin with . The trees were grown under the resonance of the earth and the sun and its pure resonance. Harmony. The fretboard is not perfect , but the frequency I described is as close as you can get. Multiplied by 55 the 7.83 hertz brings you to a corrected concert pitch . It corrects and A 440 or a previous A 432 which was close as in the Stradivarious and European concert tunings to a corrected 430.65 hertz.
The difference was looking at ripples in the water while frequency waves were tuned until pure geometric patterns became apparent. These perfect geometric patterns of resonance indicate you are in tune with nature. No machine , no peterson , just pure nature to the decimal frequency.

When I applied this to my acoustics , it was amazing sustain and beauty. When you are even close the difference is apparent. When going electric , the harmonics were so intense , I could not get a solid reading with the peterson strobe tuner or a chromatic because of all the blossoming sympathetic harmonics in the guitars natual resonance and sypothetic resonance on adjacent strings.
Now, You have to realize if your going to play EVH , find the open A chord from Eruption for instance and measure the Hertz. It may not be in the exact range. But here you have to tweak the note to the 7.83 frequency. I used the High E string on the fifth fret to 'gauge' the now corrected A=440 now down to a A=430.65 hertz starting point.
This is still a bit high for EVH , so what do you do ? you take this note and subtract a core or root of 7.83 hertz and tune down here. OR you fret one step down to the fourth fret on the high A and re tune as you will still be in the zone here. Its a core of 7.83 hertz. If you were to say , use a capo like alot of player do use that mind set to sink your brain into it. You still , as a player need to tune with one root note and tune the whole instrument as if you have a tuning fork.
So EVH means , take the high E string fifth fret to 430.65 hertz ( 430 / 431) and then fret the fourth fret and now tune your open A or fretted G on the second fret to get in tune and resume for the rest of the fretboard. No tuners just your ears.
NOW, go play and see what I am talking about. You may not be exactly in tune with the songs or the records , but thats not the point. Its the synergy , it works with your instrument, your amp or acoustic guitar but most important is your MIND. You now have left and right brain UNITY and ongoing HEALING and musical clarity . Try Pink Floyd on for size here , its literally mind numbing and David Gilmore knows exatly what he was doing here!

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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by garbeaj » Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:39 am

Plexi, I want to understand what you are saying and I just want to clarify...it sounds like you are saying to sound like Edward and Dave Gilmour, tune using the rubric you've presented. Yet you also seem to be saying that you know that neither EVH or Gilmour actually tuned using your method. I'm not following you..

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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by jnew » Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:03 am

He clearly stated that you will not be in tune with those artists. Since he started the thread, all he's been saying basically is tune your guitar as described and play some of those artists music. And not alongside the album or CD. Just YOU and YOUR instrument and YOUR gear so that YOU can experience the resonance and harmonic balance he describes.
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Re: Ultimate harmonics theory explained.....

Post by garbeaj » Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:20 am

jnew wrote:He clearly stated that you will not be in tune with those artists. Since he started the thread, all he's been saying basically is tune your guitar as described and play some of those artists music. And not alongside the album or CD. Just YOU and YOUR instrument and YOUR gear so that YOU can experience the resonance and harmonic balance he describes.
Ok, I think I got it. It was just confusing because it really sounded like Plexi WAS saying that Eddie (or Ted and Donn if you like) and David Gilmour specifically tuned in this way.

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